Question about using blankets to mask out echo.

[ironpony]

Yeah I will have to ADR the rest. I know you can't compare a hyper to a shotgun but I was wondering that apple was equally as good to that orange.

The shotgun has a nice echoey effect in one scene, in a big reflective room and I might keep that echoey sound for effect, but we'll see in post. Okay there is still one thing I don't get. The FR-2LE has three dials. The trim, and the monitor. The trim raises the levels, and the monitor of course, is just for me. I wasn't referring to the monitor dial before. What I was referring to was, there is this bigger dial, and I don't know what it does. As far as I know it does the same thing as the trim does, although the difference is, the louder you raise the level, it hisses more. What's that dial do differently, then the trim? I read the manual and it says level control, but I thought trim controlled levels.

 

[Alex H.]

Okay there is still one thing I don't get. The FR-2LE has three dials. The trim, and the monitor. The trim raises the levels, and the monitor of course, is just for me. I wasn't referring to the monitor dial before. What I was referring to was, there is this bigger dial, and I don't know what it does. As far as I know it does the same thing as the trim does, although the difference is, the louder you raise the level, it hisses more. What's that dial do differently, then the trim? I read the manual and it says level control, but I thought trim controlled levels.

Okay, one more time:

Start with the MIC TRIM all the way down. This is the input level for the mic, or, how much gain is added by the pre-amp. If you push the gain on the pre-amps past about 75%, you'll start to add more noise hiss). The pre-amps in the FR2-LE, however, are pretty dang good.

Set the LEVEL CONTROL to the 1:00-ish position. This is an overall recording level control. It's a second gain stage that affects the signal after the mic trim. Proper recording, with an ideal signal:noise ratio is a balancing act between input trim (aka "gain" on some mixers) and master level.

Bring the MIC TRIM up until your dialog is at the proper level - peaking at -12dB. If that pushes the pre-amp too far, you can bring the master level up a little bit in order to bring the input trim back down a little.

The MIC TRIM is used to set input gain for ideal signal:noise ratio. This brings the mic up to line level, as there is no such thing as mic-level recording. Generally, once it is set it does not need to be adjusted*. The LEVEL CONTROL then adjusts for the overall recording level, and if you aren't using a mixer in front of the recorder is what is used to adjust the recording as needed.

The monitor level controls only the amount of signal flowing to the headphones. It does not impact recording levels at all. The headphone amp in the FR2-LE is the machine's major shortcoming, as it is noisy (hissy). None of this noise is recorded.

*Note that this setup process should be done at the start of every shoot day... these aren't settings that you set once and leave forever. Always, always, always double-check your gain staging.

 

[Rippie]

I might be missing something but it seems like the advice given is that switching over to a hyper is going to solve this persons problems.
I truly doubt if the room is difficult that a simple mic switch is suddenly going to make things ok. It "might" help but it might not do a dang thing.

Personally I would be doing what the OP asked in the first place and sound blanket as much of the area as possible, starting with as close to talent as possible.

 

[dre83]

Your monitorlevel is very important too. And don't be scared to put it loud enough and don't put it to low neither, so you can hear everything.

Speak in the mic with a normal voice, until you reach about between 3dB and 0dB which would be your highest level. This should sound in your ears as "watch out".

And then for the question: "how far may it go on the meters". Well they say that going over 0dB is not good... But that's just a number.
Because there's an AD (analog, your voice to digital, the flashcard) conversion the most low binairy combination is 000000000000000000000000 (24)
the most high binairy combination for the level is 111111111111111111111111 (24), so when it goes higher it 'distords".

Normaly the 0dB on the levelmeter still has some safety. So it could be that you go into red, but it doesn"t sound "distorted".

A "normal" or good level would be between 12 and 6. But once more, this are just numbers... Which I want to say: don't learn those numbers by hart....
because other meters have different scaling etc...

Then when someone speaks low (whispers), level it up, when someone shouts...level it down. But don't do it all the way.
You can keep some dynamic in it (it's normal that the sound of the walking mosquito is lower then the sound of that mosquito being hit by an atombomb....)
So don't try to keep leveling so every single letter reaches the 6dB, it's normal it changes between...about 24 (or 48maybe) and 3.

Maybe the limiter is good to use, to avoid clipping ? But I don' t know the FR-2LE very well to say "do it !!" or "don't do it !!"

And be aware if you use an external mic to not accidently use the internal mics. Listen very carefully how a good mic position sounds (less "roomy") and a not good micposition

 

[Alex H.]

I might be missing something but it seems like the advice given is that switching over to a hyper is going to solve this persons problems.
I truly doubt if the room is difficult that a simple mic switch is suddenly going to make things ok. It "might" help but it might not do a dang thing.

Personally I would be doing what the OP asked in the first place and sound blanket as much of the area as possible, starting with as close to talent as possible.

Rippie, what we've figured out through the course of this discussion is a myriad of audio issues.

Sound blankets will help, but the OP has been using a shotgun in a very reflective room. Not only is the mic choice bad, the mic is up to 4' away. So while sound blankets could help... we're way outside the effective working distance of any mic in that space. Plus, it appears that the OP does not know how properly to set up recording levels with the recorder in question, so on top of poor mic choice/placement and the reflective room, it's just a perfect storm of bad sound.

 

[Alex H.]

Speak in the mic with a normal voice, until you reach about between 3dB and 0dB which would be your highest level. This should sound in your ears as "watch out".

I strongly disagree. Setting a "normal" speaking level to between -3dB and 0dB is just bad practice and sets the sound up for some pretty nasty clipping.

And then for the question: "how far may it go on the meters". Well they say that going over 0dB is not good... But that's just a number.
Because there's an AD (analog, your voice to digital, the flashcard) conversion the most low binairy combination is 000000000000000000000000 (24)
the most high binairy combination for the level is 111111111111111111111111 (24), so when it goes higher it 'distords".

Normaly the 0dB on the levelmeter still has some safety. So it could be that you go into red, but it doesn"t sound "distorted".

0dB isn't just a number. We're dealing with 0dBFS, or Full Scale, meaning that 0dB is the highest you can go. As you pointed out, it means that all the bits are full (all 1s). Trying to cram more information in at that point results in digital clipping, which is not a pleasing sound at all.

This is digital, which means that, once it has been converted from analog, no other noise will be added. There's no reason not to leave yourself a safe headroom margin of 6dB - 12dB.

A "normal" or good level would be between 12 and 6. But once more, this are just numbers... Which I want to say: don't learn those numbers by hart....
because other meters have different scaling etc...

Then when someone speaks low (whispers), level it up, when someone shouts...level it down. But don't do it all the way.
You can keep some dynamic in it (it's normal that the sound of the walking mosquito is lower then the sound of that mosquito being hit by an atombomb....)
So don't try to keep leveling so every single letter reaches the 6dB, it's normal it changes between...about 24 (or 48maybe) and 3.

As I said previously, the dialog should be averaging between -20dB and -12dB (that can actually be -24dB and -12dB), with sudden peaks at -6dB. There is absolutely no reason to hit -3dB or 0dB. None at all. This leaves plenty of dynamic range (which is the difference between the softest sound and the loudest sound). These aren't "just numbers". The meter is there for a reason.

 

[Rippie]

Rippie, what we've figured out through the course of this discussion is a myriad of audio issues.

Sound blankets will help, but the OP has been using a shotgun in a very reflective room. Not only is the mic choice bad, the mic is up to 4' away. So while sound blankets could help... we're way outside the effective working distance of any mic in that space. Plus, it appears that the OP does not know how properly to set up recording levels with the recorder in question, so on top of poor mic choice/placement and the reflective room, it's just a perfect storm of bad sound.

I missed that 4 ft comment the first time around. Just like you said, sounds like there is more at play here than just a live room.
Good luck with the help.

 

[ironpony]

Thanks I've noticed that it's pretty hissy through the headphones compared to when I play it through other speakers. That's why it's very hard to tell if the levels are good. I did do just that a few weeks ago. Turn the trim up 75% and the level about two thirds. That usually seems to work the best, but there was one position the mic was in where I had to turn the trim all the way up, and the level at only 10%. But that might have been wrong too, still learning. Just going with what sounded best, through the headphones.

Okay I bought the 4053b, and have been testing it out, indoors. I can't find any difference between that, and a shotgun indoors. They both sound the same, I actually have to label the samples in order to be able to tell. What difference should I be looking for?

 

[Alex H.]

Thanks I've noticed that it's pretty hissy through the headphones compared to when I play it through other speakers. That's why it's very hard to tell if the levels are good. I did do just that a few weeks ago. Turn the trim up 75% and the level about two thirds. That usually seems to work the best, but there was one position the mic was in where I had to turn the trim all the way up, and the level at only 10%. But that might have been wrong too, still learning. Just going with what sounded best, through the headphones.

If you have the trim all the way up, and the master level at only about 10%, you need to do some readjustment. Again, the gain should really be set at the start of the shoot day (or any time the gear is disconnected and then reset) and - generally - left in place. Use the master level to make up any level discrepancies from there.

Okay I bought the 4053b, and have been testing it out, indoors. I can't find any difference between that, and a shotgun indoors. They both sound the same, I actually have to label the samples in order to be able to tell. What difference should I be looking for?

How close are you getting the mic? The closer, the better. You should hear a less hollow sound with the 4053b in a standard, reflective room such as a living room for bedroom or home office, but the mic should also be as close as possible (8" is a good starting place). Anything past 20" isn't going to get you workable results.

And it could be that you still need to rig some dampening (sound blankets) in the room. But mic placement is your first line of defense.

 

[dre83]

Acutually he's not obligated, forced to hear a difference. But it also depends on the mic position (like Alex said), and the kind of room.

A room with stuff in it will sound different then en empty room. And a painted room will be different then a wallpapered room.

Also, the "you HAVE, MUST, are OBLIGATED, FORCED" to use a shotgun outside and a hypercardio inside is....bullshit. I know soundpeople (who do sound for cinema, features...you know the "real" ones") who uses
shotguns inside.... But.... here it comes....you have to boom properly then yes. And not just "hanging" somewhere nearby.

But people won't hear a difference, like the OP said. Although we'll have to wait what his mic placement was.

I think (new) soundpeople have to hear for themself if a cardio, hypercardio, shotgun is better inside or outside. Otherwise they will only use it that specific way because "someone told them they had to", but they don't know (hear) the raison actually...

And it also depends if you listen to a 21.2 speaker system, at home, pc-speakers, headphones, car-radio....

 

[Mitch.Kear]

Maybe link test samples and you can get some better advise. I wouldn't just go buying mics, if anything rent a couple wired lavs.

 

[ironpony]

I'll post a couple of samples in a bit. I could rent lavs but the rental store is almost always out, and you have to book too far in advance.

 

[Michael Carter]

I'm not a seasoned location sound pro, but I have plenty of cases where I have to capture audio myself.

Regarding sound blankets - they're not a do-all, fix everything item. I find the best uses for them are IDing where the worst reflections are coming from. Shot in a huge yoga studio the other day, and making a small "room" with blankets helped immensely. It also had 2000 SF of wood floor, which we covered in thick, wooly yoga blankets.

If you're shooting in a living room next to a 2-story stairwell, by all means block off the doorway with sound deadening. Use them to kill the most egregious sources of reflections.

One thing I've seen - newbies treat hanging sound blankets from c-stands the same way they treat bounce or diffusion: using far too small a "panel". TWO c-stands, ceiling height, with a 9' piece of conduit or a background paper bar... with two or three sound blankets clipped to it... you'll start to hear some results. Often just taking out one wall or putting an angled "wall" up works wonders... often this can be well out of the way of shooting and camera placement.

 

[ironpony]

Thanks. I just so happen to be shooting a scene next to a stairwell on a wooden floor in one of my upcoming scenes. I don't know if I'll be able to block the stairway off though without it being seen in the camera. We may need it.

 

[dre83]

it's very simple: if it's in the frame...don't use the blankets....

It's normal that sound sounds as it is...It's normal that in a big cave, the sound sounds as it is...in a big cave...

I wouldn't think to much about it.

 

[Mitch.Kear]

No dre. Not only should you be trying not to pick up the atmosphere but if you aren't using the proper mic or technique it won't even sound natural anyway.

 

[dre83]

well...if it's in the frame....

I mean you have to make a choise then: other location ? closer shots ? Wild lines ? wild sounds ?

But I want to say that you don't have to "as a director" say "oh ok, we'll do everyhing in medium close, so that blankets can be used...
It's best to keep your "story" and your "way of seeing it".

And then solutions will come... (or not)

 

[ironpony]

Okay thanks guys. Well I got a hypercardioid to help with the echo. Should I still set up blankets all over the floors and on folding chairs, or is there a different way of doing things with a hyper?

 

[Allan Black]

All depends on the room sound, be ready to move/add/remove blankets as the situations demand.

Go to each spot exactly where the voices will work from and clap your hands together a couple of times. YOu might be able to hear the various room reverbs which should tell you what to expect.

If not then by doing this repeatedly on successive jobs, recording and comparing samples will eventually teach you.

If there's time, collect audio samples of the scenes with and without blankets for analysis later. Don't forget to grab 2-3 mins of room tone.

Cheers.

 

[Steve House]

Okay thanks guys. Well I got a hypercardioid to help with the echo. Should I still set up blankets all over the floors and on folding chairs, or is there a different way of doing things with a hyper?

Personally I can't see draping blankets over folding chairs as doing much. To cut reflections from a wall, the blanket should hang vertically, ideally extending from ceiling to floor, parallel to the wall a few inches away from it. The geometry of the room is the determining factor, not the mic you're going to use. Walk around the room and clap your hands, listening to the reverb. You should find several spots where it's least, put your talent there.