Don't fool yourself and others: 24p content is broadcast over 1080i with 2-3 pulldown, and any half-decent television set is capable of restoring full 1080p24 from such a stream. So in a way, 1080p24 is already being broadcast. Same goes to 1080p30, though 2-2 pulldown support is still not stellar on this side of the pond, I've heard it is much better in Europe, where they package 1080p25 into 1080i50.
Pulsating image degradation
- Thread starter Nitsuj
- Start date
You know about everyone?Everyone sits far enough back from their 1080p TV's that there's no difference between 1080p and 720p anyway
Ben_B
Veteran
Ok unscientific but still interesting:
http://gizmodo.com/5280355/guess-what-many-of-you-wasted-money-on-your-1080p-tv-but-theres-hope
http://gizmodo.com/5280355/guess-what-many-of-you-wasted-money-on-your-1080p-tv-but-theres-hope
I respect your opinion Ben and I am sure you could shoot something in 720p or SD for that matter that would look better than anything I did in 1080p. But for me who is an unskilled shooter I need all I can get out of resolution, bitrate, etc. I also want something that will last longer, 720p will eventually be completely replaced by 1080p. I want to hold on to what I buy for many years, people like you who are in the film profession probably have cameras all over the place and replace them all the time so having a gh1 is a cool thing to have because you have other options.
I would love to have a Gh1 for a very compact stealthy solution in addition to a heftier machine like the 7d, but I can only get one. The GH1 is pretty cool, I have a strong attachment to it otherwise I would not be posting here. I wish i could get several different cameras.
I would love to have a Gh1 for a very compact stealthy solution in addition to a heftier machine like the 7d, but I can only get one. The GH1 is pretty cool, I have a strong attachment to it otherwise I would not be posting here. I wish i could get several different cameras.
Nitsuj
Well-known member
FHD on this camera is beautiful. The shots I posted were extreme examples. I literally had to search high and low to get those examples. And it came down to static shots of a lot of detail. This sort of things happens on a lot of cameras. This wasn't a post to show a flaw in the GH1, it was to find out what was causing it and how to work around it.
Nobody even has the 7D. Why does this keep getting brought up? It is silly throwing the 7D in every forum post.
And this is based on what grounds? Sorry but I disagree completely.
Then this isn't the camera for you. It has been said many times already, this isn't the camera for everybody. I suggest waiting for the HV50 or something.
When this happens, the 7D will be exhibited in museums of old tech.
Nitsuj
Well-known member
Yes this is what is happening so I believe you are completely correct on what is happening. Thanks for your advice. I will keep all of it in mind when doing static shots.
Ben_B
Veteran
Clearly you guys aren't familiar with resolvable resolution. It's the reason why say, 12k, will never replace 1080p. Even if you can pack that many pixels into asmall, say 60" display, at some point (not much further than 1080p as evidenced by data regarding the way in which 1080p on a normal sized TV already looks no better than 720p the further back you go) the human eye cannot tell the difference unless you're using a massive, say, IMAX sized screen, which we won't have in our houses.
I plan to hold onto my GH1 for many years. I may have shot on the HVX, EX-1, JVC-100 (which aren't even really pro cameras) but I've never owned one. The GH1 is the first thing better than a MiniDV Handycam I've owned...and I bought it because I wanted shallower DOF in my films for school, to get a better understanding and appreciation for cinematography, to document things I do and places I go, and because I didn't want to have to deal with the normal shennanigans of not being able to get the right piece of equipment at the right time for a shoot...my schedule is jam-packed enough without having to worry about whether or not I can get one of the five HMC-150s assigned for my class of 20.
But what you need to understand is that no technology is future-proof. If you keep worrying about what will get you the best possible image 10 years from now you'll never be able to buy a camera. What you need to figure out is what is best for you now and in the immediate future, get it, and make some amazing stuff on it. 10 years from now if your film is still good, and if you put a lot of love and work into it I am sure it will be, nobody is going to care what you shot on.
I plan to hold onto my GH1 for many years. I may have shot on the HVX, EX-1, JVC-100 (which aren't even really pro cameras) but I've never owned one. The GH1 is the first thing better than a MiniDV Handycam I've owned...and I bought it because I wanted shallower DOF in my films for school, to get a better understanding and appreciation for cinematography, to document things I do and places I go, and because I didn't want to have to deal with the normal shennanigans of not being able to get the right piece of equipment at the right time for a shoot...my schedule is jam-packed enough without having to worry about whether or not I can get one of the five HMC-150s assigned for my class of 20.
But what you need to understand is that no technology is future-proof. If you keep worrying about what will get you the best possible image 10 years from now you'll never be able to buy a camera. What you need to figure out is what is best for you now and in the immediate future, get it, and make some amazing stuff on it. 10 years from now if your film is still good, and if you put a lot of love and work into it I am sure it will be, nobody is going to care what you shot on.
Nitsuj
Well-known member
I would have loved to use the GH1 when I was in film school. I used the Sony VX2000 and the XL1 for all my projects and this GH1 is miles ahead in my eyes. I was doing all kinds of SFX with those cameras (chroma keying) and there is no reason the GH1 can't even do better. Damn, I miss film school now. Anyway the GH1 is perfect for film school. I bet it will be better than the school's equipment.
Ben_B
Veteran
Well the school equipment is pretty good. Classes use, in this order (least advanced to more advanced), HMC-150, HVX-200, EX-1. The HMC class was originally on GL2's until this year, so that explains why they're using what is arguably a better camera (in terms of optics, low light performance, etc) than the next class up using HVX-200s (not A.)
The TV station has two JVC-100u and two EX-1s that you can use if you put your film on the TV station in the end.
All in all decent set of equipment but none of it can really get to the DOF of a GH1 with fast primes.
Not that any of this equipment is particularly old but old equipment still does a pretty good job. I've got a friend that cuts VX-1000 footage next to his HVX in skate videos and it holds up decently (given that that is sort of the style for a lot of these videos---switching kinds of cameras, etc.) In fact he actually traded his DVX for the VX and some money when he got the HVX because it gave him enough left over to get an awesome, very expensive, fish-eye for the VX (which is mainly what he uses it for, and was using the DVX for.) We still miss the DVX though. That has to be one of my favorite cameras of all time.
But yes I think the GH1 is perfect for a film student, especially when it can be used to supplement the traditional video cameras the school has. I think learning to shoot with the features and limitations of a vDSLR is very similar to learning to shoot with the features and limitations of a motion picture film camera, which is something that we don't do at our school anymore.
The TV station has two JVC-100u and two EX-1s that you can use if you put your film on the TV station in the end.
All in all decent set of equipment but none of it can really get to the DOF of a GH1 with fast primes.
Not that any of this equipment is particularly old but old equipment still does a pretty good job. I've got a friend that cuts VX-1000 footage next to his HVX in skate videos and it holds up decently (given that that is sort of the style for a lot of these videos---switching kinds of cameras, etc.) In fact he actually traded his DVX for the VX and some money when he got the HVX because it gave him enough left over to get an awesome, very expensive, fish-eye for the VX (which is mainly what he uses it for, and was using the DVX for.) We still miss the DVX though. That has to be one of my favorite cameras of all time.
But yes I think the GH1 is perfect for a film student, especially when it can be used to supplement the traditional video cameras the school has. I think learning to shoot with the features and limitations of a vDSLR is very similar to learning to shoot with the features and limitations of a motion picture film camera, which is something that we don't do at our school anymore.
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BhambuNath
Well-known member
I've seen the #1 with green color.
Nitsuj
Well-known member
Ah... I did use a GL1 back in the day too. GL2's until this year eh? Well that is good they got good equipment.
When I went to film school back in 2001 - 2003 I chose the video route because I said then that Video was where it was going. While the other students were spending thousands on one or two films I was knocking out 20 with very little money. I did make a couple of 8mm shorts though and those were fun. We didn't edit them with NLE's so it was a good experience to actually cut film.
Oh btw I have been using an ND and PL filter which seems to be toning down the original problem in this thread. I'm gonna run it through another test tomorrow at the same location to compare. Not sure if it is going to help but after getting an ND filter on top of my PL filter the image looks even better. I highly recommend using the stock lens with an ND and PL filter whenever possible.
When I went to film school back in 2001 - 2003 I chose the video route because I said then that Video was where it was going. While the other students were spending thousands on one or two films I was knocking out 20 with very little money. I did make a couple of 8mm shorts though and those were fun. We didn't edit them with NLE's so it was a good experience to actually cut film.
Oh btw I have been using an ND and PL filter which seems to be toning down the original problem in this thread. I'm gonna run it through another test tomorrow at the same location to compare. Not sure if it is going to help but after getting an ND filter on top of my PL filter the image looks even better. I highly recommend using the stock lens with an ND and PL filter whenever possible.
Not all AVCHD implementations are the same.
Part of the reason for the "muddy" look and I frame pusling is the GH1 uses a different AVCHD implementation than other cameras: 1) It doesn't use CABAC, and that alone represents a 20-30% compression loss. 2) There are no b-frames , so it's compression efficiency is lower than say, HMC150 or even consumer AVCHD cameras (such as HDC-HS300) at the same bitrate.
Shooting relatively still sequences might turn out ok, but as soon as there is motion, detail or any complexity, this camera will be less forgiving because of the lower encoding efficiency
Part of the reason for the "muddy" look and I frame pusling is the GH1 uses a different AVCHD implementation than other cameras: 1) It doesn't use CABAC, and that alone represents a 20-30% compression loss. 2) There are no b-frames , so it's compression efficiency is lower than say, HMC150 or even consumer AVCHD cameras (such as HDC-HS300) at the same bitrate.
Shooting relatively still sequences might turn out ok, but as soon as there is motion, detail or any complexity, this camera will be less forgiving because of the lower encoding efficiency
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Please note: I am not a video expert, however I am interested in the GH1, and am a professional photographer.
With regards to your problem: I think it is the too-high shutter speeds you are using perhaps combined with AVCHD. In your video I noticed that the leaves were moving somewhat rapidly in the areas you outlined. This, combined with too-high shutter speeds, could cause the problem. Luminous-landscape recommends no higher than 1/50 sec shutter speed for video for the GH1, or 1/125 if you PP for slow motion.
As far as the Codec goes, the only thing I know about that is that the GH1's codec does not use "B" frames.
Please read this link: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/gh1.shtml
There is a lot detail here on the GH1's video.
Let me know if this helps you. Good shooting!
With regards to your problem: I think it is the too-high shutter speeds you are using perhaps combined with AVCHD. In your video I noticed that the leaves were moving somewhat rapidly in the areas you outlined. This, combined with too-high shutter speeds, could cause the problem. Luminous-landscape recommends no higher than 1/50 sec shutter speed for video for the GH1, or 1/125 if you PP for slow motion.
As far as the Codec goes, the only thing I know about that is that the GH1's codec does not use "B" frames.
Please read this link: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/gh1.shtml
There is a lot detail here on the GH1's video.
Let me know if this helps you. Good shooting!
That does suck, but try the same shot on a slightly longer lens. These issues always seem to crop up when people are so so wide and everything is in focus--which funny enough is the main thing type of shots people were trying to avoid with 35mm adapters and the DOF on this camera...