C200: PSA: C200 early adopters be prepared for your camera to drop in price in a year.

[boo]

Let's not forget the computer power and storage needed to handle Raw. EVA1 makes more sense to me having an excellent 10 bit 4:2:2 internal codec and raw when needed to a recorder. Sitting back and waiting until the end of the year/early 2018 to see how these 2 cameras play out in the field. Fun times... My Sony VX1000 is still making me money.

 

[Fahnon]

If you're looking at it from that perspective, then as a raw camera it has extremely strong competition from the URSA Mini Pro 4.6K and Kinefinity Terra 6K (plus eventually the Terra 5K. Plus you could even count in the FS700/FS5/FS7/FS7mk2 and Panasonic EVA1, all of which have raw output. There is also the secondhand camera market, a Sony PMW-F5 secondhand does raw and is not far off in price from a C200 at all. Plus all the various flavors of secondhand RED cameras).

I've owned the Ursa Mini 4.6k (non-pro) and currently own one of those secondhand RED cameras you mention. I'm getting a C200. With BMD, they have Q/A and customer support problems (the latter of which is why I'm no longer with them); and have a bad rep. All things being equal, I'd rather go with Canon and I'm putting my money where my mouth is. BMD also doesn't have a lightweight, autofocus body with superb ISO performance. For the $7,500 the C200 costs, you're limited to the old MX sensor, and anything higher will cost close to double. Check out the marketplace over on Reduser; you can't even get a Scarlet Dragon for anywhere near $7,500 much less a Scarlet-W. Kinefinity isn't on my radar and I haven't seen a single person using one in the field, and I'd bet I'm typical. Certainly wouldn't choose them over Canon all else being equal.

I want internal RAW as that's what I'll be shooting with this camera 85%-90% of the time. I'm not shooting long-form interviews or takes that are longer than a couple of minutes on a narrative set, so having to use a bolt-on recorder isn't as appealing to me than just throwing a card in.

Now the biggest issue I see here, is only a very small niche of people would be looking at cameras in this price segment and ONLY shooting raw all the time.

Time will tell on this one. I was right there when the original BMCC was released, and really fell in love with shooting RAW.

You need a middle ground codec to shoot all those other jobs which pay you to keep your lights on and food on the table.

I think this is the heart of this whole debate. Pages and pages of arguing comes down to this. I don't "need" that middle ground codec. I just don't.

I don't put food on the table being paid by anyone who needs 10-bit 422 (typically my clients don't care what I'm shooting on beyond the cost). I have been paid repeatedly from jobs where I shot with a C100 mk1 (8-bit) and C300 mk1 (8-bit) and an a7S mk1 (8-bit) and other 8-bit cameras. Recently. I'm probably jinxing myself to hell saying this, but I've also not had much issue grading those 8-bit files. I'd love to have 10-bit 422, but it's clearly not a need looking at my history. Not in the face of all the other things this camera does so well...

I get that it's a big deal for you and others who have broadcast clients, but it's hardly even close to a dealbreaker for me.

All of those other ones I mentioned have that option. The Canon C200 doesn't. Like I said, the C200 is a weirdly crippled camera (to protect the Canon C300mk2 of course!).

Like I said, I'd rather have it than not, but it really won't stop me from doing what I personally will do with this camera. And for the 10%-15% of the time where I need 10-bit, I have an Atomos recorder sitting right there.

And that is totally ignoring the question if the C200 can even beat the other competitors when it comes to just raw! (highly debatable indeed, I know I'd prefer many of those over a C200 if I was to pick a camera to shoot raw in)

I've already seen the RAW files and played with them. Seems like it's great to me! If you're using Resolve, the workflow is the same I'm already used to. Why would you choose a Blackmagic, RED or Sony + recorder over this?

Ha! Spot on, that probably gives away what Canon was really thinking when they designed the C200.

But it doesn't. Like I said in response to the same comment, most of the RAW shooting cameras only have one slot. ALL of the REDs do, and only BMD's last two cameras (Ursa and Ursa Mini) have dual slot RAW internal recording as far as I know...

 

[Michael Thames]

Let's not forget the computer power and storage needed to handle Raw. EVA1 makes more sense to me having an excellent 10 bit 4:2:2 internal codec and raw when needed to a recorder. Sitting back and waiting until the end of the year/early 2018 to see how these 2 cameras play out in the field. Fun times... My Sony VX1000 is still making me money.

Why mention the EVA1? The C300 does the same thing, and has a better AF system.

 

[puredrifting]

Why mention the EVA1? The C300 does the same thing, and has a better AF system.

To be fair, the EVA 1 at this point is a complete unknown. Currently, the EVA 1 is $2,000.00 cheaper and uses much less expensive media. EVA 1 will also do slow motion up to 240 fps, which the C300 MKII cannot do obviously and the EVA 1 will have 4K 60p which the C300 MKII lacks. While I love DPAF, not everyone needs or wants auto focus. Personally, I think with Mitch promising Varicam-like color, if it has a similar decent manual focus guide like the Varicam LT and the codec/DSP looks good, it may be a winner. But nobody knows, we haven't even seen footage from it yet.

 

[jb.]

I'm not sure that I'd say the EVA1 uses "much less expensive media." A 400Mbps codec on SD cards is going to require a pretty top-end SD card. 400Mbps is 50MB/s which means a V60 card. The only V60 cards at B&H right now are the Delkins and they're running about $100 for a 128GB and $200 for a 256GB.

I just bought four Transcend CFX600 256GB cards from Amazon UK with 2-day (to me in the USA) shipping for $808. That's $202 each. They work great with the C300 Mark II.

The difference in price between the cameras also isn't $2000 if you have a good relationship with your dealer. I paid FAR less than $9999 for my brand new C300 Mark II from an authorized dealer. Since the C300 Mark II is mature in the market, there are deals to be had vs. a camera that's still "on the way."

 

[DLD]

... The difference in price between the cameras also isn't $2000 if you have a good relationship with your dealer. I paid FAR less than $9999 for my brand new C300 Mark II from an authorized dealer. ."

Hmm ... this usually means that the retailer own cost (aka wholesale) has been lowered significantly. And, usually, but not always, that means this model is being cleared out and its replacement is on the way.

Usually.

But not always.

 

[NorBro]

Some dealers (if they can) will work on the price even for a brand new camera (like recently released).

 

[Run&Gun]

Depends on their contracts, too. Sometimes they can sell items for whatever they please, they just can't advertise it below a certain amount(MAP pricing), sometimes they cannot even sell it below a certain amount(could mean trouble if they were audited) and sometimes they are able to get around it by creating their own bundle of items sold together at a "package price" much like B&H does a lot.

I had one of my dealers go to a manufacturer with a written grey market quote I had for an item(this manufacturer did not have any policies against grey items at the time) to see if they would meet it to keep the sale "here in the US". They did and saved me ~$6K-$7K vs. the normal US price(not map, street price), and it came through my US dealer through the US office. Good luck with that type of stuff nowadays...

 

[DLD]

In the 80's, grey market goods were "hot" and in a good way. A lot of chains and small retailers made a lot of money selling grey/gray market video and audio as unauthorized dealers. These days, most small brick&mortar retailers are gone and the large online sites don't want to incur the ire of the major manufacturers. And those who fight it have to battle it out in court, with the legal costs often far too high to maintain the practice.

In any case, how low a retailer is willing to go depends on his expectations. With Canon lowering its prices over the course of a business cycle, it makes little sense to sit on a large inventory of the not-so-hot-selling Canon models, which may be on the verge of being closed out anyway. And the retailers usually have a good hint if something is being closed out.

PS. If one presumes a 40% margin, then getting $800-$1,000 off on a C300 MKII even at $10,000 MAP should be doable.

 

[mrtreve]

Yep I got a decent discount on my C300 mkii just after release by requesting quotes from a few places and then seeing if others would match that. In the end I paid slightly more to get one from a dealer that had one in stock (rather than be on a waiting list). It was still quite a good saving on a brand new camera compared to if just paid the advertised price online.

They're also usually willing to give better discounts if you buy a bunch of stuff at once... so putting together a shooting kit if you have the cash available will get you a bigger discount too.

 

[Amira-user]

V60 means the minimum write speed is 60 mb/sec, there are now V90 sd cards from sandisk extream pro, i doubt delkin is the only player in the game right now, i also believe the panasonic brand sd cards are rated higher, not to mention now 'hoodman' is entering the memory card market, their line is called 'hoodman raw steel', apparently they can handle quite the beating since they are steel plated with reinforced internal housing.

anyway abit off topic but does anyone know if the C200 can support L series lenses or efs for 'face tracking' or is it reserved for STM lenses only? Dan (puredrift), can you chime in?

 

[Eric Coughlin]

anyway abit off topic but does anyone know if the C200 can support L series lenses or efs for 'face tracking' or is it reserved for STM lenses only? Dan (puredrift), can you chime in?

I'd assume it's the same as with the C300 Mark II. Face detection on the C300 Mark II works on my Canon L, Sigma Art, and Tokina lenses, and I'd assume various other non-Canon AF lenses as well.

 

[NorBro]

Yup...everything should work. Some will work better than others. I would expect a lens from 2017 - no matter who makes it - to perform great, but others from the past work perfectly. It's really random.

 

[puredrifting]

V60 means the minimum write speed is 60 mb/sec, there are now V90 sd cards from sandisk extream pro, i doubt delkin is the only player in the game right now, i also believe the panasonic brand sd cards are rated higher, not to mention now 'hoodman' is entering the memory card market, their line is called 'hoodman raw steel', apparently they can handle quite the beating since they are steel plated with reinforced internal housing.

anyway abit off topic but does anyone know if the C200 can support L series lenses or efs for 'face tracking' or is it reserved for STM lenses only? Dan (puredrift), can you chime in?

Did not ask Loren Simons at Canon that specifically but I'd bet it will work with any of the lenses as Eric refers to with his C300 MKII.

 

[jb.]

V60 means the minimum write speed is 60 mb/sec, there are now V90 sd cards from sandisk extream pro, i doubt delkin is the only player in the game right now, i also believe the panasonic brand sd cards are rated higher, not to mention now 'hoodman' is entering the memory card market, their line is called 'hoodman raw steel', apparently they can handle quite the beating since they are steel plated with reinforced internal housing.

It's one thing to rate your card at "95MB/s" or whatever and a completely different thing for it to meet the V30/V60/V90 standards.

Currently SanDisk is not shipping ANY V-rated cards. Their Extreme Pro UHS-II is rated at "300MB/s" but it is NOT V90. It's not even V30 rated. It's just a U3 Class 10 card.

None of the Hoodman cards are V-rated either.

Panasonic has a V90 rated card... but I can't find anywhere in the US that carries them. You can get the 64GB card from Australia for $368 AUD ($290 USD at current exchange rates).

Sony has some very high speed UHS-II cards too, but they're not V-rated either.

Currently Delkin are the only V60 rated cards at B&H. There are also V90-rated cards from Delkin at B&H too, but why buy more speed than you need.

If the camera's software doesn't check the cards rating (some do, I know some Sony cams check before they'll enable some record modes), then some of these fast non-V-Rated cards might work just fine. But fast SD cards aren't exactly cheap anyway. The 128GB Sony SF-G card is $250. The UHS-II Extreme Pro 128GB is the same price ($250).

The point stands... fast SD cards aren't cheap. They're comparable (or more expensive) in price to the Transcend CFX600s I use in my C300 Mark II. So, the media isn't "vastly cheaper."

 

[puredrifting]

They're comparable (or more expensive) in price to the Transcend CFX600s I use in my C300 Mark II. So, the media isn't "vastly cheaper."

My comment was pertaining to the Sandisk Extreme Pro CFast 2.0 cards, the only VPG-130 certified cards at $349.95 for 128GB is what, 40% price difference more expensive? Guess it depends on if you think 40% is vastly cheaper? If not vastly, then definitely significantly cheaper.

 

[DLD]

Just going from memory off the articles I have ran across lately, the newly released SSD's are being priced for under 30c per GB at 512GB/1TB sizes. In other words, someone better come up with that CFast-to-SSD C200 adapter yesterday. And Canon ought to be working with the accessory manufacturers on this, since they're gong to be the primary beneficiaries.

 

[Eric Coughlin]

Ah, the C200. The batteries and media are too expensive for the price point of the camera, so let's use V-mount and AB batteries along with an external CFast-to-SSD adapter to hang off the camera, and by that point let's just start calling the camera the Blackmagic Design C200.