Matt Gottshalk
Resident Preditor
Technical specs aside.
DSLRs aren't going to go down that road because the main market for them is....wait for it...PHOTOGRAPHERS.
PS Cam Digital X35, P+S Technik
- Thread starter mik303
- Start date
Technical specs aside.
DSLRs aren't going to go down that road because the main market for them is....wait for it...PHOTOGRAPHERS.
Maybe. But then again, why do they have HD video now? I think it's premature to predict where they will go when three or four years ago no one could've predicted how popular they'd become for video production.
Matt Gottshalk
Resident Preditor
They have HD video now because the Asoociated Press asked Canon to come out with some kind of video feature so that their news photographer in Afghanistan could start shooting video for the AP's web site.
Hence the 5dmkii.
In other words, nothing happens in a vacuum and it took some external force to transform what was exclusively a photographer's tool into a hybrid tool. Then other Canon models -- and other manufacturers -- followed suit. (Ironically, the 5dmk2 became 24p capable only after the 7D came out.) That evolution kind of makes my point -- these really aren't just still cameras anymore. While they have that heritage and form factor, it seems that many of the improvements are on the video side. And the AP isn't the only entity that has lobbied Canon and the others. George Lucas supposedly used 5dmk2s on Red Tails. I'm sure he voiced some suggestions to Canon, as have many other filmmakers, including a number of DPs. So I don't think we've seen the end of the HDSLR's evolution as a video tool. And while we obviously disagree, it wouldn't surprise me to see full-sensor capability, global shutters, better codecs, and higher frame rates over the next few years.
starcentral
Veteran
Similar to the Sony F3, there is an option planned for 4:4:4 RGB out on the P+S X35.
I am still doubtful DSLR will improve as much as you speculate. Can you say why a company would release a product that directly competes with its own professional camcorder division and as a result cut overall company profits? Sorry but that just doesn't make sense. For decades companies have released camcorder models that have 85% of what you want, and require you to pay dearly for the other 15%. For that reason, there will be no pressing need to "fix" the shortcomings of a CMOS sensor in a DSLR camera for improved video use. Instead, Canon for example, will just release their own version of a CMOS Super35-sized-sensor camcorder with interchangeable lenes of course.
+1
+1
If they can make a large enough profit, sure they would. Both Canon and Panasonic released large-sensor HD video capability in their consumer digital still cameras first. For over a year, Panasonic's GH1 offered something none of its video cameras offered. Canon, same thing -- in fact, Canon hasn't even announced any large-sensor video camera yet. And Canon doesn't have a high end to protect. Only Sony, with its "we know best" attitude, manifestly hobbles its consumer products, such as not offering 24p on its lower-end models.
True. But if most of that 85% ends up on-screen, many will tolerate or compensate for the other shortcomings.
Canon probably will. But it probably won't fix rolling-shutter issues in its video-camera sensor without first fixing them in the "still"-camera sensor. If you haven't noticed, manufacturers -- at least Sony and Panasonic, anyway -- have been adapting their still-sensor technology to their large-sensor pro video cameras. And until Canon releases a large-sensor video model, it's making plenty of money with the 5dmk2, 7D, T2i, T3i, etc. Either HDSLRs and video cameras are two different, noncompeting markets, or they aren't. Improving the former as well as the latter probably won't change that situation much.
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If this camera is over 7 grand. Then there's no need for a countdown. There's a huge market waiting for cameras such as the scarlet that Red has been grinding at with no release for 5 years. If that's their target, bring it on and i will be huge. If this camera's target market is like Red's and Arri's, i don't see this as a big deal.
starcentral
Veteran
Canon is always last to bring out new prosumer camcorders with the "latest" features people want, and it is just a matter of time before they too announce a 35mm large sensor based video camera. Once they do, the larger they keep the gap between their DSLRs and professional 35mm cameras, the larger in fact their profits will be.
As for the P+S X35, I don't think we'll see this for less than $20k body only...
As for the P+S X35, I don't think we'll see this for less than $20k body only...
Mitch Gross
Veteran
I think you guys are likely all way low on pricing. This is a different kind of camera for a different kind of market. I expect pricing is in Alexa territory. Maybe this just isn't the camera for you.
Postmaster
Dark Side of the Camera
4 minutes?
Frank
starcentral
Veteran
Mitch I think you are right, taking a better look at the specs, this is not even meant to compete with the Sony F3. At 20k-25k it would be ground breaking, but with 450fps planned and likely higher DR with output option this will easily be 50k. Hey, look, it does come with 15mm support rods built right into that base though... 
Neil Burner
Active member
there is no way this camera will be sub 100k body only. P+S makes some awesome products but they also come at a very high price...
combatentropy
Veteran
It's complicated. The R&D for a camera meant for Hollywood and one for tourists is the same (millions of dollars). In both cases, you are paying a handful of Ph.D.'s over the course of a couple years. But this is a one-time cost per model. Once it's on the assembly line, you just start cranking 'em out.
Volume, at this point, makes a difference. They will sell millions of DSLRs but only dozens of Hollywood cams. This is, in fact, the main reason why news and movie cameras are so much more. If they sold the same number of cameras in all divisions --- if they sold millions of movie cameras and millions of news cameras --- then they would all be nearly the same price.
But they never will sell millions of movie cameras. If I offered the average DVX user a Canon Rebel for $500 or a Sony F35 for $500, they likely would take the F35. But the same doesn't go for the average hobbyist. The F35 is big, heavy, and lacks autofocus. The average person would actually get more enjoyment out the Canon Rebel. In fact, they probably wouldn't even take the F35 if you offered it to them for free (in a hypothetical scenario where they couldn't resell it) because they can't take it with them on vacation, they can't get it up and running fast enough to catch their little toddler's first birthday, and it's just going to take up space in the living room.
So, it is my opinion that the main reason high-end cameras cost so much is simply economies of scale. And Sony's professional division doesn't make 100 times more money than its consumer division, even though its cameras cost 100 times as much. In fact, it's the reverse. The consumer division makes way more than the professional division. If they could make a change to a camera so that it would raise the number sold enough, then they'd do it. Granted, a change that sells one more Hollywood cam is equal to a change that sells a hundred more DSLRs, but if you're saying that they are looking purely at money, then the two choices are equal.
starcentral
Veteran
When I say "directly compete" I mean to the point that the HDSLR has all issues worked out of it and features added where there is no reason left to spend 3 times the amount to get a professional s35mm video camera. (as Tzedekh alluded to in post #4)
A.) That is not going to happen (xlr inputs, waveform monitor, zebra stripes, peaking, high speed frame rates, etc.. etc..)
B.) Why should the primary market who the HDSLR is indended for (the photographer) pay a premium because a "few" filmmakers in a niche market wanted improvements to HD video?
Companies like Canon will no doubt try to include a few little things here and there over time, but will always be forced to consider the PRIMARY market for the product, not the secondary one(s).
A.) That is not going to happen (xlr inputs, waveform monitor, zebra stripes, peaking, high speed frame rates, etc.. etc..)
B.) Why should the primary market who the HDSLR is indended for (the photographer) pay a premium because a "few" filmmakers in a niche market wanted improvements to HD video?
Companies like Canon will no doubt try to include a few little things here and there over time, but will always be forced to consider the PRIMARY market for the product, not the secondary one(s).
Rick Burnett
Section Moderator
I think it goes without saying that we've beaten the HDSLR to any other camera argument to death.
Hi guys. Please try to stay on topic. This thread has "NOTHING" to do with DSLRS. Please discuss the camera at hand.
combatentropy
Veteran
There should be a Design section on DVXUser, a place where we can hash out how future cameras should be. There is no place just for that. So it inevitably creeps into every thread where a new camera is announced. People want to talk about it.
Mitch Gross
Veteran
You are incredibly inaccurate with your assumptions. Much of the technology that goes into professional gear is built to performance tolerances far beyond that of consumer equipment. Making something 1mm is a lot easier and cheaper than making something 1.00000mm.
A Honda and a Ferrari both have four wheels and run off gas, but there is little comparison beyond this. I can walk into any restaurant and look at industrial grade kitchen equipment and know that it will outlast and outperform the consumer versions. I could go on.
A Honda and a Ferrari both have four wheels and run off gas, but there is little comparison beyond this. I can walk into any restaurant and look at industrial grade kitchen equipment and know that it will outlast and outperform the consumer versions. I could go on.
starcentral
Veteran
Mitch, any guess to the price of the PS X35?