PS Cam Digital X35, P+S Technik

M

mik303

Active member
Oh man, the buzz is out about this camera. P+S Technik is a successful company with the distribution and marketing in place, to make a move on RED. Unfortunately, their products are usually pretty expensive by American standards ... but who knows what this will cost? Also, are they going to have the same "Japanese nuclear interference" supply problems that EPIC & SCARLET have been having? I don't know, but I'm counting the days, hours and seconds until their announcement at Cine Gear Expo 2011 in LA (just like their website.) Any thoughts?

http://www.pstechnik.de/ps-cam-x35/index.php
 
I can only imagine what it will cost, their dof adapters are like 10k. Im guessing it will be up there with Alexa.
 
I guess the price has to be stratospheric, because they have only a limited window of opportunity. I expect that, within a few years, HDSLRs will have global shutters and be able to do sustained full-sensor (> 20- MP) RAW at up to several hundred frames per second, for less than $2K (lenses extra, of course). By then, they may even have more videocentric features. Although they will probably still lack many of video-camera niceties, I'll bet few will be willing to spend $50K more for better ergonomics.
 
matoliki said:
http://www.studiodaily.com/blog/?p=6298
Click to expand...

Leave it to the Germans to develop a camera even uglier than the AF100.

If it costs $US 9K -- they'll conquer the world and be the new gods of the production world. If it costs over thirty-thousand, it's another yawn that will probably be sold to a handful of European film companies.

Competition is good and all new innovations are welcomed. The issue is that the business model of pro cameras is changing fast, and the days of cameras that cost more than cars are approaching an end -- replaced by better, cheaper, smaller cameras whose output can be professionally enhanced in more sophisticated post production software. Within the decade you and I will be laughing at old cameras that cost thirty, fifty, or a hundred or more thousand dollars.
 
This is going to be expensive for sure, you can bet on it. Their 2/3" digital magazine for the sr3 is something like $50k.
 
AGMedia said:
Leave it to the Germans to develop a camera even uglier than the AF100.

If it costs $US 9K -- they'll conquer the world and be the new gods of the production world. If it costs over thirty-thousand, it's another yawn that will probably be sold to a handful of European film companies.
Click to expand...

How can anyone start moaning about price, or aesthetics for that matter (which look great to me... very sleak and easy to use, ARRIesque).. before any spec info or actually production models arrive.

Is the difference between, say, 10 stops of DR on the AF100 to 14+ stops on the Arri worth 10x-15x more in $.... to some people, hell yea! (of course, that is one of MANY reason the Arri is amazing).
 
Last edited:
Tzedekh said:
I guess the price has to be stratospheric, because they have only a limited window of opportunity. I expect that, within a few years, HDSLRs will have global shutters and be able to do sustained full-sensor (> 20- MP) RAW at up to several hundred frames per second, for less than $2K (lenses extra, of course). By then, they may even have more videocentric features. Although they will probably still lack many of video-camera niceties, I'll bet few will be willing to spend $50K more for better ergonomics.
Click to expand...

DSLRs are a different market - there are lots of things that will always leave them with moire and other issues - most of all that you can only tune an OLPF for one resolution, not 2. Dedicated video cameras will get better and cheaper, and the F3 shows this, as does the Alexa, the Red One, and even the Af100, but DSLRs not really.
 
Robert Ruffo said:
DSLRs are a different market - there are lots of things that will always leave them with moire and other issues - most of all that you can only tune an OLPF for one resolution, not 2. Dedicated video cameras will get better and cheaper, and the F3 shows this, as does the Alexa, the Red One, and even the Af100, but DSLRs not really.
Click to expand...
You missed my point. With full-sensor RAW, there would be no need to support two resolutions. Video would be at the full resolution of the sensor, not line-skipped or pixel-binned. This is the idea behind Red's Epic DSMC. If Red can do it, so can another manufacturer. And starting with sensor technology three years (or more) newer might make the resultant product even cheaper (and possibly better) than Red's. Of course, that's if a manufacturer wants to, and so far nobody's come close to what Red's offering at Epic's price point, let alone surpassed it. But global-shutter technology is getting there. CMOSIS's CMV12000 is a 4K x 3K APS-C sensor that can do 12 bits at up to 180 fps. It's expensive -- 500 euro in large quantities -- but I'm guessing that's much cheaper than the 5K Mysterium-X. I'm sure it's only a matter of time before they come out with a 5K or 6K 16-bit A/D sensor. And if they don't some company will as they're undoubtedly not not the only ones developing such technology.
 
Last edited:
Tzedekh said:
within a few years, HDSLRs will have global shutters and be able to do sustained full-sensor (> 20- MP) RAW at up to several hundred frames per second
Click to expand...

Maybe some day, but probably not within a few years. A 20-megapixel, 16-bit sensor at several hundred frames per second (say, 400) would dump a tsunami of data: 119 gigabits per second. Of course there is no media that can take that. But even if you settled on compressing it first, I'm not sure if there is an internal computer bus that can carry it the short way from the sensor to the compressor.

I would gladly settle even for a 2-megapixel sensor, at 10 bits, at up to just 60 frames per second. Then it would just be about 1.2 gigabits per second, which is actually within the current CompactFlash card spec. There aren't any such cards being made yet, but maybe within your timeline of a few years. So, in other words, you could make a camera with today's technology that records uncompressed RAW 1920x1080, 10-bit, 60 FPS to CF cards. That would sell quite well.
 
Last edited:
combatentropy said:
Maybe some day, but likely not within a few years.

A 20-megapixel, 16-bit sensor at several hundred frames per second (say, 400) would dump a tsunami of data: 119 gigabits per second.
Click to expand...
Sure, with uncompressed RAW. But a compressed RAW format like Cineform RAW or RedRAW could reduce the data rate to more manageable levels.
 
Tzedekh said:
Sure, with uncompressed RAW. But a compressed RAW format like Cineform RAW or RedRAW could reduce the data rate to more manageable levels.
Click to expand...

Sorry, I think I was editing my post while you were replying to it. I added my thoughts about even compressing it. If you compressed it, say at 10-to-1, I think it would still be about 300 gigabytes for an hour of footage. This is totally affordable if you recorded to a hard drive. And some day you could probably record it to a $50 CF card. But looking at what's possible in three to five years, I'm just wanting the aforementioned 2K raw to CF card.
 
combatentropy said:
Sorry, I think I was editing my post while you were replying to it. I added my thoughts about even compressing it. If you compressed it, say at 10-to-1, I think it would still be about 300 gigabytes for an hour of footage. This is totally affordable if you recorded to a hard drive. And some day you could probably record it to a $50 CF card. But looking at what's possible in three to five years, I'm just wanting the aforementioned 2K raw to CF card.
Click to expand...
Twelve-bit Cineform RAW at 4K and 24 fps takes about 320-400 Mbps, also well within the ability of the CF spec.
 
I've owned some great P+S equipment and it is no doubt expensive, but it is also extremely well built and reliable. If you've been lucky enough to use some of it I'm sure you'd agree. Nonetheless I'm happy to see another manufacturer step into the 35mm large sensor arena and bring more competition to RED and the others. Lets see the price tag!

I also wouldn't say the window of opportunity is limited, that's assuming DSLR will make drastic changes and turn into a video camera (please remember the differences) over the next few years - sorry but just highly unlikely....
 
Last edited:
starcentral said:
I've owned some great P+S equipment and it is no doubt expensive, but it is also extremely well built and reliable. If you've been lucky enough to use some of it I'm sure you'd agree. Nonetheless I'm happy to see another manufacturer step into the 35mm large sensor arena and bring more competition to RED and the others. Lets see the price tag!
Click to expand...
DV.com says that the base configuration is 10-bit 4:2:2 1080p, with 10 stops of latitude. If true -- and I'm not sure I believe it -- that's underwhelming, and hardly in the same class as Red or Alexa.

I also wouldn't say the window of opportunity is limited, that's assuming DSLR will make drastic changes and turn into a video camera (please remember the differences) over the next few years - sorry but just highly unlikely....
Click to expand...
HDSLRs have already undergone drastic changes that have effectively made them video cameras. Do they have the conventional form factor? No. Do they have all the features pros want? No. Are they wildly popular for video acquisition? Yes. And will they improve even more drastically? Yes. Like it or not, the film and video people (myself included) who quibble and kvetch about all the shortcomings of HDSLRs may get our asses handed to us by "ignorant" amateurs who don't care so much about image skew, lack of timecode, dodgy codecs, etc., and are willing to use the technology as it is and who will only get better as their skills and the technology improve. And if the PS-Cam X35 is capable of only 10-bit 4:2:2 1080p and 10 stops of latitude, its window of opportunity is indeed limited, even if it can do up to 450 fps. When HDSLRs' image quality is as good or better than that (and I believe that to be sooner than many here might expect), a lot more people will accept or compensate for the relatively minor inconveniences and choose a $2K HDSLR over a $20K video camera. And the high-end single-chip video camera market won't expand the way the manufacturers hoped.
 
Last edited:
Tzedekh said:
And if the PS-Cam X35 is capable of only 10-bit 4:2:2 1080p and 10 stops of latitude, its window of opportunity is indeed limited, even if it can do up to 450 fps.
Click to expand...

I think it's safe to say that DSLRs will never do 450fps @ 1080p, that is pretty amazing and pushing towards phantom territory ...... 10 stops DR sounds a bit low, but we will have to wait and see, that might be boosted by some kind of S/gamma curves
 
stockfuel said:
I think it's safe to say that DSLRs will never do 450fps @ 1080p
Click to expand...
No, I don't think that's safe to say. When operated in 10-bit mode, CMOSIS's CMV12000 can be operated full-frame at 300 fps. That chip was announced 6 months ago. It costs 500 euro now. In a couple of years, a better sensor (i.e., higher resolution, greater A/D bit depth, greater dynamic range, more fps) should cost significantly less. At that point, using one in a midrange consumer HDSLR would seem to be a no-brainer.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top