PS Cam Digital X35, P+S Technik

Tzedekh said:
I guess the price has to be stratospheric, because they have only a limited window of opportunity. I expect that, within a few years, HDSLRs will have global shutters and be able to do sustained full-sensor (> 20- MP) RAW at up to several hundred frames per second, for less than $2K (lenses extra, of course). By then, they may even have more videocentric features. Although they will probably Pop still lack many of video-camera niceties, I'll bet few will be willing to spend $50K more for better ergonomics.
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Not likely. This is like saying: in 5 years they are gonna make a car that can pull a 1.1G turn, reach 60mph in 2 seconds, and have a top speed of 225MPH, all for $14,000 that runs on tapwater. So no point in a PROam racer to buy a Porche 911GT3 Turbo.

Its just not realistic. At this point, the improvements are going to be incrimental for a while....
 
TimurCivan said:
Not likely. This is like saying: in 5 years they are gonna make a car that can pull a 1.1G turn, reach 60mph in 2 seconds, and have a top speed of 225MPH, all for $14,000 that runs on tapwater. So no point in a PROam racer to buy a Porche 911GT3 Turbo.

Its just not realistic. At this point, the improvements are going to be incrimental for a while....
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Nope, nothing like that at all. Your car analogy fails because automotive technology has been incremental improvements on essentially 100-year-old mechanical technology. Solid state digital acquisition is essentially computer technology, which has improved at an exponentially faster rate. So, no, not unrealistic -- at least not for technical reasons.
 
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Some info about the X35

Some info about the X35

The price is going to be at least 80K. Very unlikely it will go lower than that price but it's impossible to say given that it also depends on the Euro/Dollar conversion at the time. It will have some features the Alexa does not have...strong possibility it can do up to over 400fps...seriously don't be surprised if it's more or less the same specs as the Alexa with a few extras. I don't know P+S is sourcing the chip from - Grass Valley? But i hope it's got some special sauce...the Alexa has the best chip around (sorry Epic lovers) but it's weak in features...what would you rather have? BEST image (Alexa) or best features (Epic) for around 80-90 thousand dollars it's a tough decision. I think the answer will be clear at Cine Gear if they allow access to RAW footage.
 
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Around 80K or more. Count on it.

Around 80K or more. Count on it.

It's priced around the same line as Alexa.

AGMedia said:
Leave it to the Germans to develop a camera even uglier than the AF100.

If it costs $US 9K -- they'll conquer the world and be the new gods of the production world. If it costs over thirty-thousand, it's another yawn that will probably be sold to a handful of European film companies.

Competition is good and all new innovations are welcomed. The issue is that the business model of pro cameras is changing fast, and the days of cameras that cost more than cars are approaching an end -- replaced by better, cheaper, smaller cameras whose output can be professionally enhanced in more sophisticated post production software. Within the decade you and I will be laughing at old cameras that cost thirty, fifty, or a hundred or more thousand dollars.
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hunter richards said:
This is going to be expensive for sure, you can bet on it. Their 2/3" digital magazine for the sr3 is something like $50k.
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The digital magazine is 40K, but if you enter the Beta program it's 32K and the upgrade will be free when the chip is finalized. The design is so simple you can install yourself. Imagine that...like hotrods back in the day...we finally get to tinker again.
 
Production Junction said:
. . . what would you rather have? BEST image (Alexa) . . .
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That's certainly debatable (sorry, Alexa lovers).

. . . or best features (Epic) for around 80-90 thousand dollars it's a tough decision.
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Epic need not cost anywhere near $80-90K. The Epic-M package is $58,000 and includes the Epic-M brain with titanium PL mount, Bomb EVF, 5" touchscreen LCD, DSMC side handle, DSMC side SSD module, REDmote, 4x 128-GB SSD cards, 4x REDVolt batteries and travel charger, custom laser-cut foam Epic Pelican 1510 case, and a 2-year warranty. The Epic-M is machined, as are many of the components of the package. (The Epic-X, which is is cast, will be functionally equivalent to the M but cost more than $20K less.) Sure, you could add $22K worth of stuff to lard it up to $80K, but that's unnecessary, given how complete the package is. Lenses are extra, of course, for either camera.
 
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I don't know how the companies work, but a lot of times to get low prices, companies will sell the main part at a loss (like the brain) and then make up the difference on accessories. Thats why a handle bar cost $500.
 
simonpwood said:
$93,500 give or take a few hundred.

http://provideocoalition.com/index.php/awilt/story/cine_gear_expo_la_2011/
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Ok ... Uh ... What? Who the heck is going to pay that? No wonder everyone is still impatiently waiting for RED Scarlet. Because if the Scarlet ever comes out, it's going to trash the entire industry with it's pricing. Sony, Arri, PS Technik and whoever else, are going to be sitting on a stack of overpriced cameras. This PSCamX35 thing actually ticks me off. I mean ... $40,000 grand would have been nice competition for the Red One ... but a 90K HD sized sensor camera? What? Why do they even have the number 35 in the model number? Maybe they'll come out with a firmware update that makes your chip grow inside of your camera to a 35mm sized chip. Or maybe not.
 
The red scarlet is a 2/3 sensor, I think someone wanting an S35 sized image isn't impatiently waiting for the Scarlet.
 
mik303 said:
a 90K HD sized sensor camera? What? Why do they even have the number 35 in the model number? Maybe they'll come out with a firmware update that makes your chip grow inside of your camera to a 35mm sized chip.
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HD is not a sensor size. It is a pixel count.

This sensor is 21mm x 12mm, which is a bit smaller than the RED One's. Even so, the lenses you would use with it would still be 35mm movie lenses. The Scarlet, on the other hand, will use a 2/3-type* sensor, which is about 10mm x 6mm.

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* Notice that I said 2/3-type, not 2/3". There is not 2/3 of an inch anywhere to be measured on 2/3-type sensor. The name "2/3" is historical, and has to do with the outer diameter of tubes (yes, back when they used tubes instead of CCDs to capture video). So 2/3, 1/2, 1/3, etc. sensors are always a little smaller than you would have guessed.
 
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The market trending the way it has towards 35mm based sensors (or S35) nobody will get my money unless its for a 35mm sensor based camera. Hard to believe RED would market a 2/3 cam in this day and age.

I hate to give Sony any credit, but they got it right with the F3. Grading is way more beneficial over super high resolution beyond HD if you had to choose...
 
starcentral said:
The market trending the way it has towards 35mm based sensors (or S35) nobody will get my money unless its for a 35mm sensor based camera. Hard to believe RED would market a 2/3 cam in this day and age.

I hate to give Sony any credit, but they got it right with the F3. Grading is way more beneficial over super high resolution beyond HD if you had to choose...
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That's because you aren't taking into consideration that cameras are used for more than just one purpose. Smaller sensors have different advantages for certain types of shooting. Larger sensors can be more troublesome in situations where you do not want shallow DoF.
 
X35 Disappointment

X35 Disappointment

combatentropy said:
HD is not a sensor size. It is a pixel count.

This sensor is 21mm x 12mm, which is a bit smaller than the RED One's. Even so, the lenses you would use with it would still be 35mm movie lenses. The Scarlet, on the other hand, will use a 2/3-type* sensor, which is about 10mm x 6mm.

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* Notice that I said 2/3-type, not 2/3". There is not 2/3 of an inch anywhere to be measured on 2/3-type sensor. The name "2/3" is historical, and has to do with the outer diameter of tubes (yes, back when they used tubes instead of CCDs to capture video). So 2/3, 1/2, 1/3, etc. sensors are always a little smaller than you would have guessed.
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Wow, that response was so incredibly detailed, I stand corrected, but my point was ... A 90 thousand dollar camera made in 2011 should be shooting 4k. The bloated price and the the HD resolution simply do not make sense to me. The X35 is almost double the price of an Epic! Am I the only person that thinks the bloated price on this machine is a disappointment? I am the guy who started this thread, I thought RED was going to get some competition, but the price of the X35 has cooled my enthusiasm. I'm going to keep on shooting with my HVX200 + Brevis dinosaur until it dies ... or until Scarlet gets here I guess. PS Technik isn't competing, Ikonoskop only seems to update us 2 times a year, and RED ... has supply issues ..:Drogar-KnockedOut(D.
 
mik303 said:
Wow, that response was so incredibly detailed, I stand corrected, but my point was ... A 90 thousand dollar camera made in 2011 should be shooting 4k. The bloated price and the the HD resolution simply do not make sense to me. The X35 is almost double the price of an Epic! Am I the only person that thinks the bloated price on this machine is a disappointment? I am the guy who started this thread, I thought RED was going to get some competition, but the price of the X35 has cooled my enthusiasm. I'm going to keep on shooting with my HVX200 + Brevis dinosaur until it dies ... or until Scarlet gets here I guess. PS Technik isn't competing, Ikonoskop only seems to update us 2 times a year, and RED ... has supply issues ..:Drogar-KnockedOut(D.
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I've been watching 'Game of Thrones' shot on an Alexa that is being shown at 720p. It looks ABSOLUTELY fantastic. While YOU have a desire for 4K, there is a lot of stuff not shot at 4K that looks amazing. NOTHING I own can show 4K footage. I have a 125" screen with a beautiful 1080p projector. I have 2 Apple 30" cinema displays. I have both a 1080p and a 720p LCD 37 and 32 inch panels. NONE of them can show me 4K video and I have no plans to upgrade ANY of that soon. The point I am making is that 4K might well be the future, but not every camera manufacturer is working on something for tomorrow. Some people really just care about what they are shooting today. I think before passing judgement on this camera, you should really wait and see what it produces. Cost is relative to the need. Clearly, if you cannot justify the cost of this camera, then it wasn't designed for you. Red is pushing the 4K image. I'm not seeing anyone else really pushing it like they are. There aren't even 4K projectors in all the theaters to even handle a 4K video. I'd say their competition is Alexa and their camera better have some great performance if it's going to be that much more than an Alexa.

I'd be happy if 1080p cameras shot closer to full resolution myself (even if that means shooting at a higher pixel count and down converting in camera to 1080p as that is what i would be doing in post anyways).
 
4K Cams

4K Cams

"Game of Thrones" is a masterpiece, very well done. Doesn't the Arri Alexa shoot 4k too? I know it's projected on 720p, but isn't the whole idea to shoot the highest resolution image possible, and then down convert to the many different formats that you project in. People watch content today on everything from 60 inch HD LCD monitors down to smart phones. I've seen short films shot on the Canon 7D and projected onto a DLP movie theater screen, and the images are amazing. I will wait and see what the x35 is delivering and pass judgement then I guess.
 
Well part of Red's stance is 'future proofing' your productions which is why they push higher resolution. The Alexa is a 2K image that is downsampled from a 3.5K sensor. Red let's you get the whole image out and do what you want with it in post (I have not researched if the Alexa will allow this too, I know they have ARRIRAW but I am not sure exactly what that means). I watched Game of Thrones in 720p on my 125" projection system and it looks great. My FS100 shoots at 1080p (although the actual resolution is less than that) and looks very sharp. My 7D does not look sharp at all at 1080p. People are enjoying content that's not even higher than 720p.

Sure, you can shoot higher, but right now, if you are going digital, there isn't a lot of stuff I see where people can even see it in a higher resolution. Ideally I'd like a camera that shoots enough extra pixels that the final resolution is as close to 1080p as possible. That's my ideal camera. Sure, the Epic is amazing, but it makes you wonder if they made a 3K version with the same sensor size, could they get higher dynamic range then what they are getting now? It's all what is important to you. Having shot A TON of stuff on a 7D, what I found is, I am not that upset with the quality. It is what it is and I enjoy it at the quality that I first saw it. I have TONS of DVDs that I watch and when I've bought the BluRay version of some of them, the transfer was indeed better, but my enjoyment didn't change. THAT was an interesting thought for me to ponder.

Nevertheless, I still feel Alexa is the baseline here. I am VERY impressed with Arri and I think if this camera doesn't outshine the Arri, then it seems like it must have some market I just don't understand.
 
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