Pricing F5 F55

[Viddovation]

The rebate has been going on for at least a year. It expires, and then quickly comes back. How long would you suggest before it becomes the "street price". No tax on out of state.

Cheers.

Rebates simply aren't the same as a flat price. For one, with a rebate you still have to pay the higher price - then wait as much as 8 to 12 weeks for the rebate to get processed and have the money returned. There is also the risk that your rebate forms don't get processed correctly, and take even longer.

The last Sony PMW-F3 rebate I sent in the rebate center claimed to have lost the paperwork, and had I not been able to produce my meticulous documentation of certified mail and UPC photocopies, there's a chance I would have never had the rebate validated. Rebates for Sony CineAlta cameras are processed by a third party contractor who handles $50 rebates for consumer goods in the same facility with the same personell. No special care is given to professional rebates.

Also, almost every single US State expects you to pay a "use tax" on equipment imported from other states. A failure to notify the state, and their subsequent failure to enforce the law, is not the same as "no sales tax."

 

[starcentral]

I will repost my evaluation from earlier today in terms of how I'm looking at things for myself at least. (Excluding power, display, media):

FS700: $9k + $2k (HXS) + $5k (AXS) = $16k
F3: $14k + $500 (Hyper Deck recorder) = $14.5k nearly 2k uncompressed, Dnx or ProRes.
F5: $15k = 2k internal 10-bit 422
F5: $15k + $500 (Hyper Deck recorder) = $15.5k for nearly 2k uncompressed, Dnx or ProRes
F5: $20k = 2k internal 10-bit 422, 4k RAW via AXS (maybe some 2k RAW too?)
F55: $25k = 4k internal 10-bit 422.
F55: $30k = 4k RAW via AXS.
Scarlet: $10,150 + $500 (Hyper Deck) = $10,650 for 4k "internal" RAW and 1080p external.

All I can say is FS700 route doesn't look that great.

 

[Ryman]

nevermind.

 

[gregpen]

Here is some info from Sony Japan's website regarding pricing. Perhaps the U.S. Pricing will be lower? Thanks to Mark Kenfield over at another site for the link...

http://www.sony.co.jp/SonyInfo/News/Press/201211/12-165/

 

[avro]

All I can say is FS700 route doesn't look that great.

Starcentral is a Superman who can shoot with F5 and no EVF ;-))

 

[legrevedotcom]

Just got a mail from Creative Ventures that they have updated their maximum invoice price to 21.995 euro +tax. So a raise of 3.000 euro from their first price hint.

That is still though a wee bit off in relations to the 32.000 dollar price mentioned.

 

[alaskacameradude]

Also, almost every single US State expects you to pay a "use tax" on equipment imported from other states. A failure to notify the state, and their subsequent failure to enforce the law, is not the same as "no sales tax."

We lucky residents of Alaska have no such legal issues as we have no state sales tax. The same goes for residents of Delaware, Montana, Oregon, and New Hampshire. I think those are the only 5 states with no state sales tax. Just as an aside, we also have no state income tax here. Why are there so few people
who live in Alaska again? O yeah, that weather thing..........

 

[MPB]

don't they pay you ​to live there?

 

[Viddovation]

We lucky residents of Alaska have no such legal issues as we have no state sales tax. The same goes for residents of Delaware, Montana, Oregon, and New Hampshire. I think those are the only 5 states with no state sales tax. Just as an aside, we also have no state income tax here. Why are there so few people
who live in Alaska again? O yeah, that weather thing..........

Tennessee has sales tax in the 9% to 9.75% range (depending on county), but no state income tax except on capital gains (stock market, investments). I do like the no income tax thing...

 

[Duke M.]

I will repost my evaluation from earlier today in terms of how I'm looking at things for myself at least. (Excluding power, display, media):

FS700: $9k + $2k (HXS) + $5k (AXS) = $16k
F3: $14k + $500 (Hyper Deck recorder) = $14.5k nearly 2k uncompressed, Dnx or ProRes.
F5: $15k = 2k internal 10-bit 422
F5: $15k + $500 (Hyper Deck recorder) = $15.5k for nearly 2k uncompressed, Dnx or ProRes
F5: $20k = 2k internal 10-bit 422, 4k RAW via AXS (maybe some 2k RAW too?)
F55: $25k = 4k internal 10-bit 422.
F55: $30k = 4k RAW via AXS.
Scarlet: $10,150 + $500 (Hyper Deck) = $10,650 for 4k "internal" RAW and 1080p external.

Dennis, isn't the Scarlet 4k before it's debayered resultling in a resolution of around 3.3k? And doesn't the Scarlet only shoot RAW so it can't do fast turn around, direct to Blu-Ray, direct to TV, etc.

I'm not saying the Scarlet is bad, but it has some severe versatility limitations if you want to make money with it. Every professional I've seen buy a Scarlet (Timur, Philip Bloom, etc) has sold it and bought an Epic in a short amount of time. That doesn't end up being a bargain. It's a gateway drug to get you to drink the koolaid. hahaha

 

[starcentral]

Dennis, isn't the Scarlet 4k before it's debayered resultling in a resolution of around 3.3k? And doesn't the Scarlet only shoot RAW so it can't do fast turn around, direct to Blu-Ray, direct to TV, etc.

I'm not saying the Scarlet is bad, but it has some severe versatility limitations if you want to make money with it. Every professional I've seen buy a Scarlet (Timur, Philip Bloom, etc) has sold it and bought an Epic in a short amount of time. That doesn't end up being a bargain. It's a gateway drug to get you to drink the koolaid. hahaha

As far as I know all these cameras use bayer-pattern sensors and so therefore none of them will achieve the "4k" resolution once you put a chart in front of it. A great article by Alister explains the truth behind "4k" quite well. Remember RAW just means de-bayering happens later on and not in-camera. The FS700 will work this way similarly to RED.

The Scarlet only records 16-bit RAW with selectable compression ratio to the side card module, but recently they announced the Meizler module which records in ProRes but it costs $13,000 and is expected to come down eventually. For cost effective 1080p on a RED camera it makes sense to just add an AJA, Atmos, Pix, or very cheap Hyper Deck Shuttle 2. Everyone's purpose might be different.

Yes a lot of guys end up going to an EPIC once they start with a Scarlet. The good thing is when you upgrade you can re-use 100% of your accessories - much like I expect it will be going from F5 to F55.


I've added the EPIC to my list as suggested by another poster here:

I will repost my evaluation from earlier today in terms of how I'm looking at things for myself at least. (Excluding power, display, media):

FS700: $9k + $2k (HXS) + $5k (AXS) = $16k
F3: $14k + $500 (Hyper Deck recorder) = $14.5k nearly 2k uncompressed, Dnx or ProRes.
F5: $15k = 2k internal 10-bit 422
F5: $15k + $500 (Hyper Deck recorder) = $15.5k for nearly 2k uncompressed, Dnx or ProRes
F5: $20k = 2k internal 10-bit 422, 4k RAW via AXS (maybe some 2k RAW too?)
F55: $25k = 4k internal 10-bit 422.
F55: $30k = 4k RAW via AXS.
Scarlet: $10,150 + $500 (Hyper Deck) = $10,650 for 4k "internal" RAW and 1080p external.
EPIC: $21,200 + $500 (Hyper Deck) = $21,700 for 4k "internal" RAW and 1080p external.

 

[nyvz]

Dennis, isn't the Scarlet 4k before it's debayered resultling in a resolution of around 3.3k?

Yes, and FS700/F5/F55 will likely be about the same since they are also 4k RAW bayer cameras, though I find RED's OLPF to be stronger than most other manufacturers because they are more serious about minimizing aliasing than most manufacturers, whereas Sony will likely go for a little more resolution and a little more aliasing. But that is the tradeoff with any bayer sensor. Any 4k RAW bayer recording will need to be debayered and will inherently provide less than 4k measurable resolution in all channels and in luma resolution after debayer.

And doesn't the Scarlet only shoot RAW so it can't do fast turn around, direct to Blu-Ray, direct to TV, etc.

Scarlet shoots RAW internally and has a full-debayer 1080p SDI/HDMI output so you can add 1080p DNxHD with a hyperdeck for $300 or with other recorders for a bit more.

I'm not saying the Scarlet is bad, but it has some severe versatility limitations if you want to make money with it. Every professional I've seen buy a Scarlet (Timur, Philip Bloom, etc) has sold it and bought an Epic in a short amount of time. That doesn't end up being a bargain. It's a gateway drug to get you to drink the koolaid. hahaha

I agree Scarlet has limitations by comparison, but not the ones you listed. Scarlet does not have any hardware gain just like Alexa and a few other cameras, so its sensitivity and dynamic never really changes at different ISO settings. In some ways this is a benefit and in some ways a drawback. Personally I wish all cameras allowed control over both Hardware and Software gain, so you could adjust over/under DR and actual sensitivity depending on the situation. Then again hardware gain benefits may not apply to certain sensor designs.

The limitations of Scarlet are most likely in its dynamic range and sensitivity relative to the F5, but the performance of the F5 remains to be seen. The other limitation I see is the inability to do line-skipping for full-frame 2k high speed shooting, and generally about half as high frame rate capabilities as the F5. But that may also indicate a weakness in the F5 which may not be able to do non-line-skipped high frame rates, which would mean high frame rate shots would always have aliasing issues. Also, Scarlet does have HDRx and appears to do 4k RAW for about half the price of Sony's least expensive 4k RAW offerings. Also, Scarlets can be purchased for less used and are available now, whereas Sony's offerings will not be available for at least another 3 months, and the cheapest 4k RAW FS700 option may not be available for 6months or more.

Also, Sony's 4k RAW seems to run at over 100MBps (800Mbps) for 24fps, and will probably have no other compression options, whereas RED's offerings let you choose any compression ratio you want depending on your workflow and storage/download capabilities.

 

[starcentral]

I agree Scarlet has limitations by comparison, but not the ones you listed. Scarlet does not have any hardware gain just like Alexa and a few other cameras, so its sensitivity and dynamic never really changes at different ISO settings. In some ways this is a benefit and in some ways a drawback. Personally I wish all cameras allowed control over both Hardware and Software gain, so you could adjust over/under DR and actual sensitivity depending on the situation. Then again hardware gain benefits may not apply to certain sensor designs.

The limitations of Scarlet are most likely in its dynamic range and sensitivity relative to the F5, but the performance of the F5 remains to be seen. The other limitation I see is the inability to do line-skipping for full-frame 2k high speed shooting, and generally about half as high frame rate capabilities as the F5. But that may also indicate a weakness in the F5 which may not be able to do non-line-skipped high frame rates, which would mean high frame rate shots would always have aliasing issues. Also, Scarlet does have HDRx and appears to do 4k RAW for about half the price of Sony's least expensive 4k RAW offerings. Also, Scarlets can be purchased for less used and are available now, whereas Sony's offerings will not be available for at least another 3 months, and the cheapest 4k RAW FS700 option may not be available for 6months or more.

Also, Sony's 4k RAW seems to run at over 100MBps (800Mbps) for 24fps, and will probably have no other compression options, whereas RED's offerings let you choose any compression ratio you want depending on your workflow and storage/download capabilities.

Great unbiased summary.

 

[FrameFarmMedia]

Scarlet shoots RAW internally and has a full-debayer 1080p SDI/HDMI output so you can add 1080p DNxHD with a hyperdeck for $300 or with other recorders for a bit more.

I didn't know that. I never hear about this workflow which seems so obvious for a lot of clients. I like learning something new. Being an Avid guy I anything to DNX is an ideal workflow.

 

[noirist]

Another change for your chart - the EPIC can capture 5k RAW internally at 120fps which gives you a full 4k when de-bayered. The Scarlet can only do 4k RAW internally at 30 fps.

 

[starcentral]

I didn't know that. I never hear about this workflow which seems so obvious for a lot of clients. I like learning something new. Being an Avid guy I anything to DNX is an ideal workflow.

It is true RED can output 1080p through SDI while recording internally to RAW - but the downside is you can not record in different color spaces. So for example it would have been ideal to chose RedLogFilm internally RAW, but something like RecColor2 via SDI in 1080p. It's very likely the hardware of the internals just can't do it, or they would have released it via firmware already... the RED community has been asking for this for quite some time already to no avail.

 

[Steve Castle]

As far as I know all these cameras use bayer-pattern sensors and so therefore none of them will achieve the "4k" resolution once you put a chart in front of it. A great article by Alister explains the truth behind "4k" quite well. Remember RAW just means de-bayering happens later on and not in-camera. The FS700 will work this way similarly to RED.

The Scarlet only records 16-bit RAW with selectable compression ratio to the side card module, but recently they announced the Meizler module which records in ProRes but it costs $13,000 and is expected to come down eventually. For cost effective 1080p on a RED camera it makes sense to just add an AJA, Atmos, Pix, or very cheap Hyper Deck Shuttle 2. Everyone's purpose might be different.

Yes a lot of guys end up going to an EPIC once they start with a Scarlet. The good thing is when you upgrade you can re-use 100% of your accessories - much like I expect it will be going from F5 to F55.

I've added the EPIC to my list as suggested by another poster here:

We don't know if the camera is using a regular bayer, it may be using a Q67 double-bayer CFA like the F65. Also, we don't know the real resolution of the sensor.

The F5 is said to use the sensor from the FS700, which is a 11.6MP sensor, and the F55 based on the other thread is also 11.6MP, ample resolution for 4K (8.3MP) even with bayer. So both cameras should resolve a full 4K resolution.

Also, 16-bit RAW is only useful if your camera has a 16-bit ADC on the sensor. The F65 supposedly does have a 16-bit ADC on sensor, but that's a rarity, I'm sure the Red doesn't have one and neither the F5/F55. Also, RAW on the Q67 double-bayer sensor is very different from a classic bayer, each pixel is panchromatic, meaning that its more like a regular image and doesn't use any debayering process.

 

[nyvz]

We don't know if the camera is using a regular bayer, it may be using a Q67 double-bayer CFA like the F65. Also, we don't know the real resolution of the sensor.

The F5 is said to use the sensor from the FS700, which is a 11.6MP sensor, and the F55 based on the other thread is also 11.6MP, ample resolution for 4K (8.3MP) even with bayer. So both cameras should resolve a full 4K resolution.

Also, 16-bit RAW is only useful if your camera has a 16-bit ADC on the sensor. The F65 supposedly does have a 16-bit ADC on sensor, but that's a rarity, I'm sure the Red doesn't have one and neither the F5/F55. Also, RAW on the Q67 double-bayer sensor is very different from a classic bayer, each pixel is panchromatic, meaning that its more like a regular image and doesn't use any debayering process.

The specs I saw said F5 is 8.9M effective pixels, which is pretty much exactly 4k DCP. This indicates it is standard Bayer not Q67 which would require twice as many photosites.

My understanding is that RED and these cameras do/will have 16b adc. It seems it would be tough to advertise their ~14stop DR without it. Would be a waste if the R5 records 16b lin RAW if ADC is less.

Q67 isn't that different from classic bayer, it is bayer but turned 45deg...

 

[nyvz]

It is true RED can output 1080p through SDI while recording internally to RAW - but the downside is you can not record in different color spaces. So for example it would have been ideal to chose RedLogFilm internally RAW, but something like RecColor2 via SDI in 1080p. It's very likely the hardware of the internals just can't do it, or they would have released it via firmware already... the RED community has been asking for this for quite some time already to no avail.

I understand what you are saying but I think you have it a bit off. It is trivial to batch change R3D files color/gamma mode, so recording different gamma/color in camera and external is a non issue in my opinion. If anything the limitation that one might want to externally record redlogfilm, but monitoring in redlogfilm is a bad idea and there is no way to monitor redcolor3 and send redlogfilm to recorder, so an external lut box would be needed.

 

[powervideo]

I understand what you are saying but I think you have it a bit off. It is trivial to batch change R3D files color/gamma mode, so recording different gamma/color in camera and external is a non issue in my opinion. If anything the limitation that one might want to externally record redlogfilm, but monitoring in redlogfilm is a bad idea and there is no way to monitor redcolor3 and send redlogfilm to recorder, so an external lut box would be needed.

i need to go back to school... rogar-KnockedOut(D