Press Release: HMC150, "the new DVX"

[mcsmooth]

I'm guessing your question is not how the image comes off the CCD, but do we still have the 21/24Mbps data rate at 720/24p (or 30p) OR does the data rate drop because there's less data? I wish I had the answer to this question.

This was a burning question for me as well, but the brochure you posted clears it up. The camera is 1080i only in all bitrates other than 21/24. At 21/24 you have full selection of all framerate and resolution variations. Even though the bitrate is variable, it still has the average rate of 21mbps to hold on to. The fact that it has VBR should only mean good things for the quality (unless they set a stupidly low minimum bitrate). Has there ever been a VBR camera before? Not an easy task to do realtime, so I found that impressive (although it could add woes to editing).

I was hoping for 720p at lower bitrates, but I am not going to complain about HD files that are still smaller than DV! I keep reminding myself that with delete-last-clip functionality, we will be fitting more on our media and coming home with a lot less footage to dig through.

...AVC-HD, as I understand it, doesn't vary the bitrate based on the frame rate, so you could have 24mbps of 720/60p, or 24mbps of 720/24p -- with obviously 2.5x as much bandwidth applied to each frame.

This is the key! It is going to be THE 720p camera. The codec has the potential to perform better than higher bitrate intra-frame codecs with low-motion shots. Can't wait to see motion/strobing tests at 720/24p to see how the codec really holds out.

Also... do we have any idea of the audio format recorded, and how it may vary with the video "mode"/"bitrate"? The AVCHD spec supports both compressed and uncompressed audio... but does the HMC150?

I believe Jan stated it would not be PCM. I would bet this was chosen to leave more bits for the video (we want the best picture) since top notch audio is typically done separate from the camera anyway. I would guess it will be 2 channel 48k AC-3 at 320 or 384kbps which would sound virtually lossless. Surround would be nice, but I doubt they would bother since the camera housing is based off the 170 with a stereo mic.

Not to hijack the thread but... How is it possible to have more light in the DVX100a/B without adding lights and using the gain?

You can't have more light without... more light, unfortunately. There are compromises you can make to get a brighter picture such as reducing the shutter speed at the cost of a blurry picture and lost motion detail. You'll find plenty of related posts in the DVX area.

 

[lordambrai]

Will the HMC150 be using pixel shift technology to achieve it's HD resolutions? I've seen the term a few times in reference to it, but has Panasonic said that these resolutions are possible because of pixel shifting and a small set of sensors? Or is it possible because there is no pixel shifting involved and the CCDs shoot naturally at a 1920x1080 resoltuion?

Also I thought it was interesting that Amazon has the HMC150 listed on their site with a 2-3 week shipping date.

http://www.amazon.com/Panasonic-AG-...1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1218218422&sr=8-1

Wonder if it's real?

 

[ullanta]

That's an interesting link... much of the info is wrong at the top (1 lb. shipping weight?) - but the specification section has some new info - pictures of dynamic range stretching at work, etc.

 

[ullanta]

I believe Jan stated it would not be PCM. I would bet this was chosen to leave more bits for the video (we want the best picture) since top notch audio is typically done separate from the camera anyway. I would guess it will be 2 channel 48k AC-3 at 320 or 384kbps which would sound virtually lossless. Surround would be nice, but I doubt they would bother since the camera housing is based off the 170 with a stereo mic.

Please, no! If at all possible, give us at least an option of PCM in SOME of the modes! No need for surround or more than 2 channels... but uncompressed, yes!

 

[BobDiaz]

TUESDAY, August 19, 2008, 11 AM Pasific / 2 PM Eastern

TUESDAY, August 19, 2008, 11 AM Pasific / 2 PM Eastern

See a review of the HMC-150 LIVE:

Videomaker to review Panasonic HMC-150 Live on 8/19/08

August 11th, 2008 by jburkhart
Panasonic has given Videomaker the scoop on the HMC-150, and we thought it would be selfish to keep it to ourselves. So we’re going to be doing a live review of the first HMC-150 in the USA on Tuesday August 19th, at 11am pacific / 2pm eastern.

We’re taking it out for a test drive this week, and will report our impressions live at http://www.videomaker.com/live.

There will be footage from the HMC-150 to download, and the chat room will be active, so if you have a question about the HMC-150’s functions or features, join the live show and we’ll try to answer it for you right there.

P.S. If you can’t make the live show, the review will be looping on our channel afterwords at: videomaker.com/live

WOW, I can't wait for that....

Bob Diaz

 

[john deaver]

Hey folks

I don't post here much (or ever) because i really didn't have anything to add... until now

I just got back from the WEVA convention (wedding and event videographers association) in Orlando FL. and saw and shot with a working 150.

it is every bit as good as we hoped

it will be the new HD dvx 100

at an after hour party sponsored by Pani the rep was passing around one for folks to play with and i shot some footage. I asked him to play it back for us and he took the card out and plugged it straight into on of the 42 inch panasonic LCD tv's they had there for viewing demo footage.

I was floored

Now the room was very dark (night club dark), and i had the cam at 6db gain and there was some grain but nothing like i have come to expect out of my canon xh-a1.
The demo footage (mostly day exteriors) they had was crisp, clean, vibrant and had my jaw dropping. I bet that 80% of pros and 100% of consumers couldn't honestly tell the difference between it and HVX200 footage.

I'm sure the HVX200 footage could survive the editing process better but still at the price they are talking there is no way i'm buying a HVX for the wedding and light corporate stuff i do.

oh and it is perfectly balanced, a perfect size and light as a feather.

its unbelievable

thanks
John

 

[impressive creations]

Yeah, thanks John. That sounds really exciting.. I do weddings and events full time now, so it looks like it's time to sell my 100B and my canon GL2. I just had to have my heads replaced on my DVX and they put in a new mother board too. I'm sure I could sell the 100B for top dollar.

Do you guys think selling the 100B is the way to go?

THanks

 

[drdimento]

Does anyone know if the HMC150 shoots a real 1920x1080 or like it's big brother at $2K the HMC70 . . shoot a 1440x1080? If been searching the net and found the articles to say both . . that is not both as in does both but one article says one the other article says the other. Any know for sure to be exact?

Also, can anyone confirm if the lens lube does in fact freeze up in cold temperatures like a friend of ours indicated he heard from a Panasonic rep and/or if the image stabilization is easily set out of balance and/or broken when the camera is shaken or jarred badly? Our friend said he heard this from a pretty reliable source that in fact these elements were a fact but we can't say we know because we don't. However, we often shoot outdoors in the frigid here in Pittsburgh and I would want to know that the image system doesn't require extensive baby'ing.

If anyone can confirm or settle these please jump in?

 

[BobDiaz]

This Just In....

This Just In....

I've converted the .pdf file form the Panasonic Government sales rep. into a form everyone could read here. The files might take a bit to load, but say a lot about the camera...

Of interest:

> Pre Record, 3 seconds!!!
> The 3 User Buttons have 11 choices
> PH (21 Mbps/24 max) & HA (17 Mbps) modes use Class 4 Cards
> HG (13 Mbps) & HE (6 Mbps) use Class 2

Bob Diaz

 

[drdimento]

Wow BobD.. nice sourcing. Thanks!

 

[TimurCivan]

Holy crap.... this thing is wicked...

 

[markyf]

I have a quick question. Since the 150 doesn't shoot in SD mode, is it possible to downconvert it to SD later on. I already have a DVX and the HPX170 appeals to me because I could shoot in SD and do a two camera shoot with my DVX. Could I get away with a two camera 150 and DVX shoot and have it look similar enough?

 

[Drew Ott]

I have a quick question. Since the 150 doesn't shoot in SD mode, is it possible to downconvert it to SD later on. I already have a DVX and the HPX170 appeals to me because I could shoot in SD and do a two camera shoot with my DVX. Could I get away with a two camera 150 and DVX shoot and have it look similar enough?

You can always downconvert in post.

 

[drdimento]

I have a quick question. Since the 150 doesn't shoot in SD mode, is it possible to downconvert it to SD later on. I already have a DVX and the HPX170 appeals to me because I could shoot in SD and do a two camera shoot with my DVX. Could I get away with a two camera 150 and DVX shoot and have it look similar enough?

markyf, I'm not sure how the 150 will be by comparison to the HVX200/200A but our findings where that the two cameras did not cut well together. You could always tell the HVX cameras; and no, they weren't better in SD mode, they always looked grainy-er and off and no matter what we did the DVX100B always had the best looking SD picture when cutting these cameras together. So, in conclusion, you may find that since the imager is different you may not get the same picture.

Regarding the downconvert, here again, you may find that the HD image downconverted will not cut with the SD DVX100B's. We tried this with the HVX200/200A and conversly to the above scenario the HVX looked astonishing compared to the DVX cuts . . except . . in low light and there the DVX blew the grainier HVX200 away but ran kneck and kneck with the DVX except when exceptionally dark with -18db gain and then the DVX was better . . even at -12db the DVX was better . . but straightaway and -6db similiar.

This was our experience cutting over 150 DVX/HVX productions a year and a about a 1/3 of that was multicam TV where we had to use the HVX and because of client complaint we stuck a Canon XH-A1 in the loop in place of either the 200 or 200A and with its' 1080 x 1080 SD imager configuration when in SD mode AND a downloaded DVXMATCH PRESET from a website, we got an almost carbon copy look with just a tad of tweak and so far the only HD camera we were able to cut with our DVX100B's.

Mixing SD and HD imagers (4:3 and 16:9 native imagers) is tricky at best, either way there is a difference in look. I'm sure there are folks that can prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that technically speaking there isn't a difference in the image/picture but to the non-tech viewer, there is and that's where the selling point is. Always remember that technically speaking the Titanic was unsinkable.

 

[PerroneFord]

Yes,

It uses pixel shift. There are no 1/3" 1920x1080 imagers for these cameras. It's doing the same thing the HVX200 and HPX170 are. Doesn't mean it's necessarily bad, but it's not native 1920.

Will the HMC150 be using pixel shift technology to achieve it's HD resolutions? I've seen the term a few times in reference to it, but has Panasonic said that these resolutions are possible because of pixel shifting and a small set of sensors? Or is it possible because there is no pixel shifting involved and the CCDs shoot naturally at a 1920x1080 resoltuion?

Also I thought it was interesting that Amazon has the HMC150 listed on their site with a 2-3 week shipping date.

http://www.amazon.com/Panasonic-AG-...1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1218218422&sr=8-1

Wonder if it's real?

 

[PerroneFord]

Has there ever been a VBR camera before? Not an easy task to do realtime, so I found that impressive (although it could add woes to editing).

Yes. There are other cameras that do VBR. And at higher bitrates than the HMC150. Though none that I am aware of that do it in AVCHD.

This is the key! It is going to be THE 720p camera.

I wouldn't go that far. Without native HD imagers, it's still giving a lot away to cameras like the JVC, the Sony, etc. But at the price point, it is certainly going to be the best around for now.

I believe Jan stated it would not be PCM. I would bet this was chosen to leave more bits for the video (we want the best picture) since top notch audio is typically done separate from the camera anyway.

I see this as a major fault. Even it's predecessor was able to give better audio performance. And to be honest, asking someone in this market (under $4k cameras) to shoot dual system to get uncompressed audio is a bit dubious. A quality audio recorder is going to be more than half the price of this camera. Add two quality mics, and you just doubled your purchase price.

Still, this camera will bring a lot of people into the world of HD, much as the DVX brought people into the world of 24p. Some other manufacturers STILL haven't got it right. I think this is going to be a terrific camera for the money.

 

[Everts]

Will you be able to record and output to HDMI @ the same time ?

 

[Barry_Green]

Does anyone know if the HMC150 shoots a real 1920x1080 or like it's big brother at $2K the HMC70 . . shoot a 1440x1080?

It does both. It has five modes, actually:
6mbps 1440x1080
13mbps 1440x1080
17mbps 1440x1080
21mbps 1920x1080
and, for 720p, it has 21mbps 1280x720

Also, can anyone confirm if the lens lube does in fact freeze up in cold temperatures like a friend of ours indicated he heard from a Panasonic rep and/or if the image stabilization is easily set out of balance and/or broken when the camera is shaken or jarred badly?

Ridiculous stupidity. HVX200s use the exact same lens design (larger size, but same design) and same lubes and have been used in Antarctica and across the entire 1100-mile Iditarod trail. Panasonic cameras are IMPERVIOUS to cold weather.

 

[BobDiaz]

RE: Pixel Shifting

There's a strong reason to believe that the HMC-150 will use the same pixel shifting as found on the HVX-200 & HVX-200a. Given that the 200 has been out for several years, we have enough feedback from users to know that the images produced are wonderful. If you don't believe me, just go to the HVX-200 section of this forum and ask the users.

Users become obsessed with resolution and forget that color saturation, dynamic range, and image sensor noise are also part of what makes a good image.


Uncompressed vs. Compressed Audio:

Uncompressed is always better than compressed, but the difference may be minor. The quality of MP3 recordings made at 384 kbps is very good. If I can take a cut from my production music, compress it to 384 kbps, and restore it to uncompressed, I'll post a "Copy A", "Copy B" for others to download and see who can tell the difference...


Bob Diaz

 

[Barry_Green]

I have a quick question. Since the 150 doesn't shoot in SD mode, is it possible to downconvert it to SD later on.

Of course.

You can convert in post, but the 150 doesn't record in SD. It does, however, provide for a live downconversion through either its HDMI or component video port, and it always does a live downconversion through its RCA video jack. And you can even choose what kind of downconversion: either letterbox, or full-frame 16:9, or a 4:3 center-extracted side-crop.

I already have a DVX and the HPX170 appeals to me because I could shoot in SD and do a two camera shoot with my DVX.

You could do that, but the 170 is going to look way, way better than the 100.

Could I get away with a two camera 150 and DVX shoot and have it look similar enough?

Just like the 170, the 150 is going to spank the DVX as far as grain and sharpness. Use the 100 for closeups and the 150 for wide shots and you might make for a decent match.