Elton
Veteran
Much higher frame rates are possible for slow motion or analysis. I don't think you can do 6,315 fps with a CCD sensor. http://visionresearch.com
Press Release: HMC150, "the new DVX"
- Thread starter Barry_Green
- Start date
Much higher frame rates are possible for slow motion or analysis. I don't think you can do 6,315 fps with a CCD sensor. http://visionresearch.com
Digigenic
Well-known member
Thanks for mentioning that.
I'd completely forgotten to address that particular advancement.
Should be interesting to see if over/undercranking becomes a common feature among CMOS equipped prosumer cameras.
BobDiaz
The Professor
More Thoughts .....
More Thoughts .....
Single or Dual Slot For Memory Cards:
While I've seen some WEB postings guessing at $6,000 ($5,999), I'm going to guess that UNDER $4,000 is the list price (like $3,999) with a street price of around $3,499. Consider the street price of the Canon XH-A1, about $3,499 or the Sony HVR-V1U, around $3,499 street price.
IF I'm correct on this price, Panasonic has to really keep costs in line. So, I would expect a single slot for the memory card. Now think about this; IF the maximum data rate is 24 Mbps, you could record up to 83 minutes on a 16GB card! IF the maximum data rate is 20 Mbps, the time is around 100 minutes! Does anyone know of any DV or HDV camera with dual tape drives so you could record more than a single tape without stopping??? So my prediction is for a single slot for the memory.
By the way, if 83 or 100 minutes is not enough, just wait for the Panasonic Class 6, 32 GB card to come out in April, then you'll get 166 minutes (if 24 Mbps) or 200 minutes (if 20 Mbps); try that on your DV or HDV camera!
Card Prices:
4 GB = $119.99 Class ?
8 GB = $199.99 Class 6
16 GB = $379.99 Class 6
Source: http://catalog2.panasonic.com/webap...GroupId=14571&surfModel=AG-HMC70&displayTab=S
Bob Diaz
More Thoughts .....
Single or Dual Slot For Memory Cards:
While I've seen some WEB postings guessing at $6,000 ($5,999), I'm going to guess that UNDER $4,000 is the list price (like $3,999) with a street price of around $3,499. Consider the street price of the Canon XH-A1, about $3,499 or the Sony HVR-V1U, around $3,499 street price.
IF I'm correct on this price, Panasonic has to really keep costs in line. So, I would expect a single slot for the memory card. Now think about this; IF the maximum data rate is 24 Mbps, you could record up to 83 minutes on a 16GB card! IF the maximum data rate is 20 Mbps, the time is around 100 minutes! Does anyone know of any DV or HDV camera with dual tape drives so you could record more than a single tape without stopping??? So my prediction is for a single slot for the memory.
By the way, if 83 or 100 minutes is not enough, just wait for the Panasonic Class 6, 32 GB card to come out in April, then you'll get 166 minutes (if 24 Mbps) or 200 minutes (if 20 Mbps); try that on your DV or HDV camera!
Card Prices:
4 GB = $119.99 Class ?
8 GB = $199.99 Class 6
16 GB = $379.99 Class 6
Source: http://catalog2.panasonic.com/webap...GroupId=14571&surfModel=AG-HMC70&displayTab=S
Source: http://www.news.com/8301-13580_3-9870488-39.html?tag=nefd.top
Bob Diaz
Richard J. Johnson
Joystick Member
I just read this camera will cost $6000.00. it is nice but it aint $6000.00 nice.
All pricing are entirely speculation because Pannasonic hasn't announced the official MSRP yet.
Barry_Green
Moderator
It isn't gonna be six thousand dollars! Jan already said something to the effect that "it's long-GOP and will be priced accordingly." I say it's $3500 to $4000. But I'll eat my hat if it's priced at $6,000.
IT will probably be the "Same" price as the Pre HVX days, DVX100a/b
MSRP 3999, Street 3300-3500$
MSRP 3999, Street 3300-3500$
BobDiaz
The Professor
IF the camera were $6,000, it would be priced too close to the HVX-200. Why buy the HMC-150 without over-cranking and under-cranking (as per Jan's message), when you could get the HVX-200 for around the same price.
To me the logic of pricing the camera at under $4,000 seems right. I could be wrong, but in about a month, we'll know.
For now, I hope everyone doesn't mind my guessing at what to expect for the camera. I could be wrong about a number of things, but who knows, I might get some things right....
Bob Diaz
To me the logic of pricing the camera at under $4,000 seems right. I could be wrong, but in about a month, we'll know.
For now, I hope everyone doesn't mind my guessing at what to expect for the camera. I could be wrong about a number of things, but who knows, I might get some things right....
Bob Diaz
SomewhereinLA
Well-known member
I believe it will be around $2500. $3500 would be too close to the HVX. Also it is probably much cheaper to built than an HVX and it doesn't have a DV deck as well. At a $2500 price point they really could have a best seller and very little competition, but at $3500 price point, you start looking at what Canon or Sony have to offer... Of course on the other hand the weak Dollar doesn't really help with the price 
We can always try group buy
We can always try group buy
im so curious how they are gonna make it 1080p...... Physically it should be very difficult to make a useable 1080p camera at the 1/3" size.
This is the whole reason behind the HVX's pixel shifting. bigger pixels... better lowlight....
This is the whole reason behind the HVX's pixel shifting. bigger pixels... better lowlight....
manglerBMX
Veteran
that ugly contraption known as the hmc70 is $2500, and it has a lot less bells and whistles than what the press release stated on the hmc150, so its going to be easily $500-1000 more than that. and bob's prolly right about the single slot, however... we can put two 32's in an hvx and thats the same as 2 tape decks pretty much.
This is what I want to see as well. And what that 1080p's resolution is gonna look like. =\
BobDiaz
The Professor
I would expect the 1080p (1080/24p & 1080/30p) images to look a lot like the HVX-200's 1080p images. Then again, I'm assuming the same 960h x 540v pixel shift system of the HVX.
MY brain is getting fuzzy here (no pun intended), didn't Adam do a big shootout between the different cameras about 2 years ago? As I recall, none of the 1/3" cameras could fully resolve the full 1080 resolution. The images were good, but fell a bit short on maximum sharpness at 1080. So I believe that 1/3" is a tad soft for full super sharp 1080, but 1/3" can do a sharp 720.
If you want a super sharp 1080 image, you'll need a 1/2" or better yet, 2/3" image sensor for that. Still, other parameters, like good color reproduction, contrast, dynamic range, ... that make for a good looking image are possible with a 1/3" image sensor.
You may find the following comparison between the different cameras interesting:
http://provideocoalition.com/index.php/awilt/story/three_three_letter_cameras_ex1_f23_red/P4/
At one end we have the HVX-200 and at the other end we have a $200,000 F23. Adam admits on page 1 that the comparison is unfair, but still each camera looks good. I would never expect any camera system for under $10,000 to perform like a camera system that sells for around $200,000.
So if I'm correct in my guess that the HMC150 will sell for under $4,000 and its' image is like the HVX-200's image, then in the context of the price range, the HMC150 should be a good camera. HOWEVER, this is my guess and I'll wait for the camera to come out and under go real world tests before I can really say it's a good camera or not.
There is a fun side to all of this, it's interesting to see how things will work out and how close my guesses will be. I will arrive to NAB on Tuesday, April 15 in the afternoon. My first stop will be the Panasonic Booth...
Bob Diaz
MY brain is getting fuzzy here (no pun intended), didn't Adam do a big shootout between the different cameras about 2 years ago? As I recall, none of the 1/3" cameras could fully resolve the full 1080 resolution. The images were good, but fell a bit short on maximum sharpness at 1080. So I believe that 1/3" is a tad soft for full super sharp 1080, but 1/3" can do a sharp 720.
If you want a super sharp 1080 image, you'll need a 1/2" or better yet, 2/3" image sensor for that. Still, other parameters, like good color reproduction, contrast, dynamic range, ... that make for a good looking image are possible with a 1/3" image sensor.
You may find the following comparison between the different cameras interesting:
http://provideocoalition.com/index.php/awilt/story/three_three_letter_cameras_ex1_f23_red/P4/
At one end we have the HVX-200 and at the other end we have a $200,000 F23. Adam admits on page 1 that the comparison is unfair, but still each camera looks good. I would never expect any camera system for under $10,000 to perform like a camera system that sells for around $200,000.
So if I'm correct in my guess that the HMC150 will sell for under $4,000 and its' image is like the HVX-200's image, then in the context of the price range, the HMC150 should be a good camera. HOWEVER, this is my guess and I'll wait for the camera to come out and under go real world tests before I can really say it's a good camera or not.
There is a fun side to all of this, it's interesting to see how things will work out and how close my guesses will be. I will arrive to NAB on Tuesday, April 15 in the afternoon. My first stop will be the Panasonic Booth...
Bob Diaz
Ian Slessor
Well-known member
Shame about variable frame rates but at least we get 60fps at 720p for some tasty slo-mo.
sincerely,
ian
BobDiaz
The Professor
SD (Standard Definition) Support?
One interesting item I'm not seeing is referenced in the press release is SD (Standard Definition) support. Yes, we see 1080/60i, 1080/50i, 1080/30p, 1080/25p, 1080/24p, 720/60p, 720/50p, 720/30p, 720/25p, and 720/24p, but nothing is said about recording SD resolutions...
Odd, it's clearly in the specification (see below), but not a word about it in terms of what Panasonic said.
http://www.avchd-info.org/format/index.html
Given that one can always master in 720p HD, edit in HD, and then output to SD, it's not like we're missing some really important feature. On the other hand, it's only firmware (software) within the camera, so its not requiring and additional hardware costs to do it.
Seeing as how this is the camera to replace the DVX-100b, you might guess that it has SD support. It will be interesting at NAB to see what Panasonic decided.
I won't even begin to guess what Panasonic decided to do here.
There is a strong possibility that Panasonic won't be able to tell us everything at NAB. Mainly because the camera will still be under development and they will want the flexibility to adapt to any surprise changes in the market.
Bob Diaz
One interesting item I'm not seeing is referenced in the press release is SD (Standard Definition) support. Yes, we see 1080/60i, 1080/50i, 1080/30p, 1080/25p, 1080/24p, 720/60p, 720/50p, 720/30p, 720/25p, and 720/24p, but nothing is said about recording SD resolutions...
Odd, it's clearly in the specification (see below), but not a word about it in terms of what Panasonic said.
http://www.avchd-info.org/format/index.html
Given that one can always master in 720p HD, edit in HD, and then output to SD, it's not like we're missing some really important feature. On the other hand, it's only firmware (software) within the camera, so its not requiring and additional hardware costs to do it.
Seeing as how this is the camera to replace the DVX-100b, you might guess that it has SD support. It will be interesting at NAB to see what Panasonic decided.
I won't even begin to guess what Panasonic decided to do here.
There is a strong possibility that Panasonic won't be able to tell us everything at NAB. Mainly because the camera will still be under development and they will want the flexibility to adapt to any surprise changes in the market.
Bob Diaz
ripupthehwy
Well-known member
Ok ok, I'm confused now. If the above statement is true, then how does Panasonic make 2/3'' CCD chips at full resolution on the HPX 3000?
Ok, I get it, the heat problems with the 1/3 ccd's are becasue they are so small. right?
So in order to get around this Panasonic should either switch to CMOS (yuck) or put 1/2'' CCD's in the next version of the HVX to get away from the pixel shifting approach and provide us a higher resolution camera? Oh but wait. They employ the same technology in the HPX 500 which has a 2/3'' Chip. Why ??? Yeah I'm just confused.
Anyone care to explain? THanks
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Barry_Green
Moderator
1/3" CCD plus a lot of pixels plus progressive scan = heat troubles. The three main 1/3" chip manufacturers took different approaches to this.
Sony: originally they used 960x1080 chips, and interlaced.
Canon: 1440x1080, interlaced.
JVC: 1280x720, progressive, BUT it required splitting the chip in half and reading each half separately, which yields the split-screen effect.
Panasonic: 960x540, progressive, using pixel shift to bring the resolution up to spec.
Simple fact is, you can't get that many pixels off a small chip. Sony and Canon went to interlaced to solve it, creating pseudo-progressive. JVC and Panasonic wouldn't do that, they stuck with progressive-only, but they still had to overcome the notion that you can't pull that many pixels off the chip, so JVC split the chip in half, and Panasonic cut the # of pixels and used pixel shift.
In the latest generation we're seeing CMOS used to overcome the heat issues; the FX7/V1U used 960x1080 progressive CMOS (and that's even at 1/4" size). The EX1 gets 1920x1080 progressive out of its CMOS but they had to go to a larger size (1/2") to make that happen. The tradeoff is that you have to tolerate the rolling shutter artifacts to get that.
I really don't know which way Panasonic will go with the HMC150; they could use the same HVX chipset they already have, or they could develop a new chipset. Because it's CCD, I expect that they will probably use a similar spatial-offset technique; I mean, it's either that or go with interlaced, those are pretty much the only options. We already know it's not going to be CMOS.
Sony: originally they used 960x1080 chips, and interlaced.
Canon: 1440x1080, interlaced.
JVC: 1280x720, progressive, BUT it required splitting the chip in half and reading each half separately, which yields the split-screen effect.
Panasonic: 960x540, progressive, using pixel shift to bring the resolution up to spec.
Simple fact is, you can't get that many pixels off a small chip. Sony and Canon went to interlaced to solve it, creating pseudo-progressive. JVC and Panasonic wouldn't do that, they stuck with progressive-only, but they still had to overcome the notion that you can't pull that many pixels off the chip, so JVC split the chip in half, and Panasonic cut the # of pixels and used pixel shift.
In the latest generation we're seeing CMOS used to overcome the heat issues; the FX7/V1U used 960x1080 progressive CMOS (and that's even at 1/4" size). The EX1 gets 1920x1080 progressive out of its CMOS but they had to go to a larger size (1/2") to make that happen. The tradeoff is that you have to tolerate the rolling shutter artifacts to get that.
I really don't know which way Panasonic will go with the HMC150; they could use the same HVX chipset they already have, or they could develop a new chipset. Because it's CCD, I expect that they will probably use a similar spatial-offset technique; I mean, it's either that or go with interlaced, those are pretty much the only options. We already know it's not going to be CMOS.
Barry_Green
Moderator
Price tag and sensitivity. The spatial offset technique works, and using the bigger pixels gives the 500 better sensitivity at a lower price tag. Keep in mind the 500 is giving you a 2/3" body at $10,500 -- the next lowest-cost 2/3" HD camera on the market that I can think of, offhand, is $27,000.
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BobDiaz
The Professor
You have hit upon it, a 2/3" CCD has roughly 4 times the surface area of a 1/3" CCD, thus more area to get rid of excess heat.
The more pixels you try to clock off the CCD, the more heat you generate.
The Panasonic HVX-200 is clocking roughly 0.5 million pixels in 1/60 of a second.
The Canon H1 is clocking roughly 0.78 million pixels in 1/60 of a second.
The JVC HD-100U is clocking 0.92 million pixels in 1/60 of a second. To reduce the heat level, they slowed the clock to 1/2 and shifted it out from the right and left sides of the CCD. Great idea, BUT the sides didn't always match exactly; this was the SSE (Split Screen Effect) that was reported about 2 years ago.
IN THEORY, Panasonic could have a 960h x 720v CCD that would clock roughly 0.7 million pixels in 1/60 of a second and not have to go with Dual A/D (Analog to Digital) converters like JVC had to do. However, there is a nasty side effect that occurs when you increase the head from the CCD; the noise level also increases. No only would we loose in low level light performance slightly with higher resolution, BUT the noise level at low light will increase.
I can't think of why Panasonic would want to increase the vertical resolution of the HMC150 over the HVX-200; unless there's a HVX-200a in the works. This is just pure speculation, so don't take it as news of a new HVX-200a coming out.
The 960h x 540v CCDs with pixel offset works VERY well, so I think it's unlikely that Panasonic will increase the native resolution of the CCDs. However, I think it is very likely that Panasonic has made some slight improvements to the CCDs, but that's only my guess and I could be wrong..
Side Question To Any Moderators: It's still a bit too early to create an HMC150 Forum, but when would you do it? After NAB, after DV Expo East, after it comes out, ... ???.
Bob Diaz
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