Press Release: HMC150, "the new DVX"

[Konrad]

No SD keeps the price down and you can always do it in post.

Based on Panasonic.com to BHPhoto.com pricing of the HVX (86.67%) this looks to be a street price of $3895. I was wondering if the price would creep up from $3,500 due to the uber weak dollar.

Off to NAB in the morning. Now I just need to know how expensive a lady Scarlet is going to be.

 

[BobDiaz]

It does say 24 in that Press Release. Strange. Or is it just talking about the AVCCam spec/

My reading of the "average 21 Mbps (Max 24Mbps)" rate is that if you are shooting something that doesn't really need the higher bit rate, like a wedding with little movement, the bit rate drops to LESS than 21 Mbps. (Assume 18 Mbps.) However, if the video changes to something that demands a very high bandwidth, the camera will record up to the 24 Mbps limit of AVCHD. Overall, the AVERAGE BIT RATE of all the low bandwidth (18 Mbps) + high bandwidth (24 Mbps) will be = 21 Mbps.

Assuming a good quality CODEC, the VBR (Variable Bit Rate) of the "PH Mode" should be able to outperform HDV under high stress (high bandwidth needed) shooting. That seems very clear.

I can't say for sure whether the 35 Mbps EX-1 or the HMC150 CODEC would win under high stress shooting. It's just too close to call and real world tests would be needed.

I'm pleased to see that Panasonic has allowed the higher bit rate with VBR. This gives us the high bit rate when we need it and drops the bit rate down when we don't.

Also, the 1280x720 mode uses the same "24 max (21 average) PH Recording Mode" that is found in the 1920x1080 resolution.


Of interest is a comment I found in the Panasonic Press release:

A tool designed for professional media producers, the AG-HPX170 solid-state handheld camcorder enables high definition and standard definition recording, the widest zoom lens in its class, and a HD-SDI interface for connection to baseband production and distribution infrastructure, all in a lightweight 4.2-pound body. Building on the phenomenal success of the AG-HVX200, the HPX170 is equipped with three new premium 1/3-inch CCDs and a high-performance digital signal processor with 14-bit A/D conversion and 19-bit processing to deliver broadcast-quality, independent frame recordings. The HPX170 offers a 13X Leica Dicomar zoom lens with a 28mm wide-angle setting (the widest in its class), and a 20-step frame rate selection in 720p mode for variable-speed shooting in the 12fps to 60fps range to acquire fast- or slow-motion in-camera effects. The HPX170 is backed by Panasonic’s five-year limited warranty* and will be available fall 2008.
Incorporating these new premium quality 3-CCD imagers and the 28mm zoom lens of the new HPX170, is the latest version of the popular HVX200, the HVX200A. Offering both the advantages of P2HD solid-state variable speed acquisition and a mini DV tape mechanism, the HVX200A is ideal for producers and educational institutions that are transitioning from an older standard definition, tape based infrastructure to file based, high definition production.

Here the new HVX-200a is said to have a 28mm (35mm equivalent) wide angle setting. Yet the specification PDF (bootleg) said the wide angle is 30.3 mm.
Source: http://www.zshare.net/download/104616618e1d8fa5

the AG-HVX200A 1/3” 3-CCD Handheld P2 HD/DV camcorder, now featuring improved progressive 3-CCD imagers, a DSP that increases sensitivity while lowering noise and smear, and a new 13X zoom lens;

Source:http://www2.panasonic.com/webapp/wc...8124337622&surfModel=Content04102008124337622

I'm not sure what to make of this difference...


Bob Diaz

 

[Barry_Green]

To me this suggests that the MHC150 will have the same improved CCD; with better low level light performance & lower S/N ratio.

I'd bet the 150 and 170 use the same chipset; the two cameras look identical. As to whether the 200A and the 170/150 use the same chipset, it's possible, and it seems likely (as in, how many 1/3" chipsets do they need? Why develop a new one solely for the 200A?) So my guess is that all three of them are running the same chipset.

Also both the HVX-200 and the HVX-200a have a 4.2mm range at the widest setting. Yet, the HVX-200 is equal to a 35mm equivalent of 32.5mm, BUT on the HVX-200a, it's 30.3mm equivalent. To me that suggests that the CCD is slightly larger (about 7%) than the HVX-200. This is the same size increase that I estimated for the CCD of the HMC150.

I bet you're right here, too. The lens on the 200A looks to be the same lens on the 200, but they do say that it's wider-angle; the only way that could be is if the chips were bigger. Bigger chips should yield better sensitivity and lower noise, and the 200A's claims are for better sensitivity and lower noise.

A close look at the photos of the prototypes of the HMC150 shows the low end of the zoom is 3.9mm, not the 4.2mm found on the HVX-200a. INTERESTING, my logic said that both should use the same lenses, but maybe there's a cost issue here with using the same lens on both units.

I don't know if it's a cost issue, but it's definitely a weight issue. The lens on the 150/170 is 72mm, vs. 82mm on the HVX200/200A. Smaller glass = lighter weight. The 150 & 170 are much lighter (about 1.6 pounds lighter!) than the 200/200A are.

 

[Barry_Green]

It looks like we are not talkin about 24mb per second, but 21.

I'm not so sure about that. At the press conference they said that it was 21mbps, but that may be 21mbps average with a peak of 24. I hit up some of the Japanese folks with some questions and I got some answers that I'm not 100% sure I understood. I'll try to get more info tomorrow, but from what I could ask it seems like the 17/13/6mbps versions are the same as on their existing consumer cameras, but the 21mbps is designed specifically for the HMC150 by the professional division, and that 21mbps is variable bitrate and can peak at 24mbps.

 

[Barry_Green]

EDIT: okay, duh, if I'd just read the press release it says "and enhanced quality recording (at average 21 Mbps/ Max 24Mbps) ". So yeah, it maxes out at the full 24mbps rate!

 

[ecking]

Barry any chance for any video from the floor? Is there anyone doing that? I wanna see more than a still image of these new puppies.

 

[Barry_Green]

Barry any chance for any video from the floor? Is there anyone doing that? I wanna see more than a still image of these new puppies.

I'm sure there will be many people doing that, but I'm not... if Mikko was here with his cell phone he'd probably be snapping up some video for us! We need to get TC to cover NAB for us again.

 

[Kholi]

I'm excited about the new slew of Panasonic cameras. It's not overwhelming excitement but still optimism for a better image with the same incredible workflow.

 

[BobDiaz]

I understand the placement of the HVX-200a and the HMC150, but the where HPX170 fits in the product line is unclear. It appears under the HVX-200a and above the HMC150. That seems like a very narrow area. I can only guess that Panasonic feels that there is a market for a lower cost P2 camera.

Understanding where each product fits into the product line will be one of many key questions I'll have for Panasonic tomorrow, when I get to NAB.

Bob Diaz

 

[BobDiaz]

Revisiting tapeless camcorders and the Mac

Revisiting tapeless camcorders and the Mac

This article may be of interest:

http://www.macworld.com/article/132921/2008/04/tapeless_camcorders.html?lsrc=mwweek

Less than a year ago, flash- or hard-disk based camcorders were virtually unusable on the Mac due to the lack of software support. But subsequent releases of Final Cut Studio 2 and iMovie ’08 introduced support for most tapeless camcorders. I thought the trouble—compatibility issues, bugs, and so forth—was over. Alas, as I’ve spent the past week testing some newly released tapeless camcorders, I’ve learned I was wrong: Mac compatibility issues persist.

Two out of the three camcorders I’ve tested so far—the Sanyo Xacti HD1000 and the Panasonic HDC-HS9—aren’t working as they should. The Xacti HD1000 records video as .MP4 files onto an SD card, but when playing back the footage on my 2.66GHz Mac Pro, the video appears as a green box.


Sanyo said it was familiar with the problem and explained that the latest version of QuickTime introduced playback issues with the Xacti HD1000’s video; however, the files work properly when using QuickTime 7.1.1. I retested the camcorder using QuickTime 7.1.1, and the video played back properly. Reverting to an older version of QuickTime isn’t an ideal solution, however, and Sanyo officials said they’re working with Apple to get everything fixed.

The HDC-HS9, a hybrid camcorder that offers hard-disk or SD-card recording options, initially appeared promising (especially when you consider that we awarded its predecessor, the Panasonic HDC-SD1, with an Editors’ Choice Award this past year). But it also behaved erratically in my tests; when attempting to import footage from the camcorder to the Mac Pro, both Final Cut Pro 6.0.2 and iMovie ’08 crashed. I tried to perform an import using different footage with various settings, and I even tried using other Macs, but the crash recurred.


Panasonic acknowledges the problem and said it’s working with Apple to get the issue resolved. Panasonic wasn’t clear on why the HDC-HS9 isn’t working properly with the Mac, but I suspect the problem is once again related to the latest version of QuickTime.


Apple has been tweaking QuickTime a lot lately—there have been seven updates to the multimedia software since the iPhone’s June 2007 release—and this isn’t the first time we’ve seen compatibility problems arise. Take the QuickTime 7.4 release, which caused compatibility problems with Adobe After Effects and Premiere Pro that were resolved by QuickTime 7.4.1.


It’s difficult blaming either the camcorder makers or Apple for the incompatibility issues. All the camcorder makers can do is make sure that their hardware works with the software that’s available at the time of release. As for Apple, even a company that large can’t be expected to ensure that every software update works seamlessly with every piece of third-party hardware right out of the gate. The best you can hope for is that when problems do arise, the companies acknowledge them promptly and work quickly to squash any bugs. That QuickTime-After Effects problem I mentioned above, for example, got ironed out in about two weeks’ time.


On a brighter note, since we’re talking about software issues rather than hardware, that means they can be fixed, hopefully sooner rather than later. Personally, I find tapeless camcorders to be very convenient in allowing me to skip the tedious capturing process I’d have put up with when using tapes. But since Apple is relatively new to the tapeless scene, I’m going to stick with using my trusty Canon GL1 MiniDV camcorder until the kinks become less frequent.

The bottom line is that TODAY, the software for the MAC isn't really ready for AVCHD; however it's a safe bet that by the time the HMC150 comes out, all these issues will be fixed.



Bob Diaz

 

[drdimento]

People are still using mac's?

 

[BobDiaz]

People are still using mac's?

Sure, the best PC is a MAC!!! :nads:

No joke, on my iMac I run my MAC OS and Windows XP at the same time. IF I wanted, I can run earlier versions of Windows and even DOS on my MAC. I could even run Vista, BUT I don't want to run :kali: Vista. :badputer:



rogar-BigGrin(DBG)
Bob Diaz

 

[drdimento]

Sure, the best PC is a MAC!!! :nads: No joke, on my iMac I run my MAC OS and Windows XP at the same time. IF I wanted, I can run earlier versions of Windows and even DOS on my MAC. I could even run Vista, BUT I don't want to run :kali: Vista. :badputer: rogar-BigGrin(DBG) Bob Diaz

HeHeHe . . challenge a Mac guy and they get violent :grin: . . AND . . they do everything on Apple/Mac websites but then again they pretty much have too because they are not too windows friendly otherwise . . other than when they are running windows.

Me I could care less I just want what works with the least hassle and the most support . . when we sold our two G5's and MacBook and got PC's we found our resources in the field more than double doubled (that's powers of powers) which gave us GR8 pleasure :2vrolijk_08:

 

[mikkowilson]

Ok, lets keep this thread on topic.
Mac VS PC debate stops now. Thank you.


- Mikko

 

[drdimento]

Ok, lets keep this thread on topic.
Mac VS PC debate stops now. Thank you. - Mikko

Sorry. That was my fault.

I'm hearing that this camera isn't going to be ready for delivery till Sep/Oct and if one follows the former "delivery pattern" on these products that could mean 4th Q or 1st Q next year before there's availability. Think about it . . 16GB cards just really became available recently (we had a hard time getting our first one and they had been out 4 months) AND they were promised . . what . . last may/jun?

 

[Terry_Lasater]

Heavy-handed mods sit alone in airports.

 

[Robbie Comeau]

And help others with how to use a Merlin, while paying for internet time.

 

[Jason Ramsey]

Probably had to pay for a lot of internet time too :beer:

later,
jason

 

[BobDiaz]

Ok, lets keep this thread on topic.
Mac VS PC debate stops now. Thank you.


- Mikko

And I was going to launch into the classic line, "ARE YOUR FILES SAVED!!!" rogar-BigGrin(DBG)


OK, back to the topic, I see no word for Monday from those who at at NAB, there must be a great party going on. I have to get up early tomorrow to drive to NAB, but it looks like I won't get any hint if the HMC150 is a real working model or just a static display only model. Man, that's going to be a long 6 hour drive wondering about that.

If I'm lucky, my room at the Circus Circus will have an internet connection. If it does, I'll post an update otherwise, if will be Thursday before I can get home and tell everyone.


Best Wishes,

Bob Diaz

 

[Barry_Green]

I saw no indication of any working HMC150, just a mockup. There is apparently a working HPX170 somewhere; I'll try to get closer to it. The first day of NAB is a madhouse.