PP CS4 VS. Vegas

I understand the reason for removing the pull down (i.e to get 24p out of 60i) but I do not understand the need for it because my experience (which is not much) with both types of files and watching them side by side. I could not tell one from another or what I achieved (in terms of quality) by removing the pull down........... :confused:
 
ajamils said:
I understand the reason for removing the pull down (i.e to get 24p out of 60i) but I do not understand the need for it because my experience (which is not much) with both types of files and watching them side by side. I could not tell one from another or what I achieved (in terms of quality) by removing the pull down........... :confused:
Click to expand...

sorry man, i really don't know what you're trying to say. maybe someone else can chime in. or maybe it's still vegas is better?

if you don't want 24p from the 60i file, then don't remove pulldown. if you can't tell the difference between 60i and 24p, then it doesn't matter for you. however, if you want true progressive frames from a 60i file, you have to remove pulldown, and cineform does that. adobe does not. you can't simply put a 60i file and output to 24p and get acceptable results. are you outputting that 60i file to 24p or just outputting it to 30p?
 
Car3o

24p in 60i container and native 24p have equal smoothness of motion just because they do have same amount of motion phases every second - 24. The main reason people remove pulldown is ease of postproduction. Problem with non-converted 24p-in-60i are:

1) Processing overheads. 60i needs 25% more calculations for any effects, 25% more bitrate (and space) for same "per frame" quality with intermediate codecs.

2) Messed interlaced structure after edit. If NLE system treats 24p footage as 60i you probably won't be able to remove pulldown after you finish cuts. Every temporally developing element (like moving title, transition, fast changing color correction) added on time will have 60i interlaced structure, not 24p-over-60i. So you will loose 25% of its original motion phases after fair pulldown removal. Besides, you can simply shift pulldown sequence during editing. So you'll have to make some complex deinterlacing or leave it in 60i in hope that player will solve the problems.

3) Unpredictable result on different playing and viewing devices. Due to 2) player may try to restore 60p from 60i by scaling fields, deinterlace to 30p, or remove pulldown to get 24p. But only the first variant will cause no problems (if I didn't forget something)

Scenarios for work with 24p-in-60i, from best to worst:
1) Remove pulldown in raw footage, edit native 24p
2) Select "24p over 60i" project preset if your NLE soft affords it
3) Work in 60i
4) Drop raw footage in 24p project.
The last variant is the worst because usually NLEs have some simple deinterlacing methods for realtime work. Looks like in Car3o's case NLE just threw all interlaced frames (2 of every 5) and replaced missing one with duplicate of neighbor to get 24 fps. Watch video frame by frame: 3 changing frames, 1 dupped, 3 changing frames, 1 dupped and so on...
 
Dang... I didn't know about this pulldown stuff. Is there a free way to do this on a PC without buying Neoscene?
 
Slonick,

okay great. so what does this all mean for ajamils? he doesn't see a difference between 60i and cineforms 24p. so, i can't suggest using cineform. sorry.
 
yabyum said:
Dang... I didn't know about this pulldown stuff. Is there a free way to do this on a PC without buying Neoscene?
Click to expand...

i think there is, but it's really not worth the hassle. i've seen tutorials, but it takes ages to convert and a pain in the ass. it's probaby the best $100bux spent.
 
SLoNiCK said:
Car3o

24p in 60i container and native 24p have equal smoothness of motion just because they do have same amount of motion phases every second - 24. The main reason people remove pulldown is ease of postproduction. Problem with non-converted 24p-in-60i are:

1) Processing overheads. 60i needs 25% more calculations for any effects, 25% more bitrate (and space) for same "per frame" quality with intermediate codecs.

2) Messed interlaced structure after edit. If NLE system treats 24p footage as 60i you probably won't be able to remove pulldown after you finish cuts. Every temporally developing element (like moving title, transition, fast changing color correction) added on time will have 60i interlaced structure, not 24p-over-60i. So you will loose 25% of its original motion phases after fair pulldown removal. Besides, you can simply shift pulldown sequence during editing. So you'll have to make some complex deinterlacing or leave it in 60i in hope that player will solve the problems.

3) Unpredictable result on different playing and viewing devices. Due to 2) player may try to restore 60p from 60i by scaling fields, deinterlace to 30p, or remove pulldown to get 24p. But only the first variant will cause no problems (if I didn't forget something)

Scenarios for work with 24p-in-60i, from best to worst:
1) Remove pulldown in raw footage, edit native 24p
2) Select "24p over 60i" project preset if your NLE soft affords it
3) Work in 60i
4) Drop raw footage in 24p project.
The last variant is the worst because usually NLEs have some simple deinterlacing methods for realtime work. Looks like in Car3o's case NLE just threw all interlaced frames (2 of every 5) and replaced missing one with duplicate of neighbor to get 24 fps. Watch video frame by frame: 3 changing frames, 1 dupped, 3 changing frames, 1 dupped and so on...
Click to expand...

sorry, but this isn't the case. 60i in premiere reognizes the files at 29.97. maybe vegas doesn't. unless pulldown is removed the playback between the two are no longer equal.
 
Car3o

I was mainly answering this:
ajamils
I never said Vegas does pull down. I'm just comparing 60i video vs 24p videos (regardless of the NLE) and I don't see the difference and that is why I was wondering if it was worth spending $100 on Cineform when *visually* the end result is the same.

Benefits of Cineform workflow don't lay in plane of better visual perception, it's all about proper and efficient processing. Especially in case you can't tell NLE that there is 24p in that 60i footage.

yabyum

Well, you can try some AVISynth scripting. Or tell the problem to somebody making one of these dozens of free batch video converters, may help.
 
Vegas recognizes the dropped footage at 29.97 also, and I thought one the main reasons you want to pull your footage to a native 24p is to give it the "film look" and because if you ever planned on transfering your footage to film you absolutely would not want it to be 30p. If ajamils is only planning to put out web based footage then 30p would be just fine for him, especially if he doesnt see any difference in film quality and doesnt want to shell out the money.
 
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robzoo said:
Vegas recognizes the dropped footage at 29.97 also, and I thought one the main reasons you want to pull your footage to a native 24p is to give it the "film look" and because if you ever planned on transfering your footage to film you absolutely would not want it to be 30p. If ajamils is only planning to do put out web based footage then 30p would be just fine for him, especially if he doesnt see any difference in film quality and doesnt want to shell out the money.
Click to expand...

that's where i'm confused by his comparison. if he's just comparing a 60i file to cineforms 30p file, then no, you'd notice no difference. i mistakenly did not convert to 24p using cineform and if you don't do that, there's no reason to use cineform at all.
 
Car3o said:
that's where i'm confused by his comparison. if he's just comparing a 60i file to cineforms 30p file, then no, you'd notice no difference. i mistakenly did not convert to 24p using cineform and if you don't do that, there's no reason to use cineform at all.
Click to expand...

There is nothing to be a confused about. Here is the scenario

1) Two video clips

  • One from GH1 (unprocessed) filmed at 1080i (24p in 60i container)
  • One from GH1 filmed at 1080i. Pulldown removed with Neoscene
2) Neither file is processed or edited in NLE

3) Played both files on TV and computer

Result:

Do not see any difference between 24p (in 60i container) or proper 24p video (achieved by doing the pulldown removal with Neoscene)

Question:

If there is no **visual** difference between the two files than the only reason to remove pull down is to make file more compatible (easier) to edit in NLE ?
 
ajamils said:
There is nothing to be a confused about. Here is the scenario

1) Two video clips

  • One from GH1 (unprocessed) filmed at 1080i (24p in 60i container)
  • One from GH1 filmed at 1080i. Pulldown removed with Neoscene
2) Neither file is processed or edited in NLE

3) Played both files on TV and computer

Result:

Do not see any difference between 24p (in 60i container) or proper 24p video (achieved by doing the pulldown removal with Neoscene)

Question:

If there is no **visual** difference between the two files than the only reason to remove pull down is to make file more compatible (easier) to edit in NLE ?
Click to expand...

have you never even edited either in a NLE? it seems you've only played them back from the camera or directly on your hdd? do some tests man. take a raw mts and drop in a NLE and try to export 24p. and you'll now see why cineform is used. if you don't do any of the former or see a difference in quality, well that's your choice. forget cienform and keep your workflow the way it is.
 
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