Other: Poll, price, money and your hourly rate

Poll, price, money and your hourly rate

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  • Poll closed .
There is exposure and exposure.
The answer is never work for free.

There has to be something in it for you but this may not be cash. It only has to be something that you think is worth your time and effort. It might be exposure if the people are going to see it are going to notice your name and are in a position to be useful to you. This is why companies pay for exposure. Ie putting adverts in magazines.

I think the OP is pitching his book at novices not people with 2-3 decades professional experience. What it is worth to a novice is not the same as what it is worth to a 30 year widely experienced pro.

Guidance on this will vary from market to market. This is the problem with the internet. This discussion is global, having the same discussion in your local film makers hangout will be a bit different as it will be local to that small area.
 
So far from this thread I can deduce there are 3 types of mindsets then:

1 - people who establish a rate and say they will never absolutely even once consider working for less. Ever.

2 - people who think it's ok to work for less money so long as there is some exchange involved which may not be monetary, but for example could help get into a new area of the industry, build portfolio, etc..

3 - people who think discussing this on the internet is pointless because of geography, goals, range experience, saturation, luck, etc..


did I miss any others?
 
I'm totally in camp 2 but there would have to be a really good to reason to not charge properly. I'll do a deal on multiple days though.
 
I am also in camp 2 BUT...

3 has a point if people get silly about it and not understand that what they have as unmovable constants in their world might not be the same for others.

I was once working abroad and the HR department gave me a "settling in" booklet. Page 2 only had this, in large letters on it:

JUST BECAUSE IT IS DIFFERENT
IT DOES NOT MEAN IT IS WRONG

It turned out they had a lot of foreign workers from one country who seemed to think that anything that was not exactly as it was at home was wrong and should be changed....
 
I sell the book in the Netherlands for a decade now. It is mostly used by starters and the chamber of commerce.

Worth is very relative, in the dessert a bottle of water is more worth than a backpack full of gold. A timex shows the same time as a rolex

Let me ask another question:
Are you happy, if you got what you asked for?
I presume so.
But when you got what you asked for and someone else (with the same skills) got double that because he negotiated better?
You still happy? Nothing changed.

Pricing is a science, it has to do with perception, quality, image etc. It is not only about hourly rates. And for freelancers it is even more important, their price is directly connected with their self esteem.

So thinking about your price and what it means to your clients, your concurrents and the market is a useful exercition.

Next time your client want to pay less you can say 'I can give you a discount but that is bad for my self esteem' :-)
 
I don't care what other people are earning. I charge for a service based on a good price for a good piece of work. I have had plenty of people want me to be cheaper but I have never had someone think they weren't getting good value.
 
Maybe you don't care, and you are right about that. But clients will judge you on your price too. It can be good to know what others ask, it is not only about being to expensive, you also can be to cheap. And that you cannot always know for sure
 
But if you charge and get £100 per day more than me that's great for you, but it doesn't have any bearing on what I charge or what I could possibly get away with charging.

Every time someone tells me they can get someone cheaper than me I very politely and positively suggest they go with that person, because I am not in competition with them on price.

I don't get hired because of my price. I get hired because (hopefully) I am good.
 
starcentral said:
So far from this thread I can deduce there are 3 types of mindsets then:

1 - people who establish a rate and say they will never absolutely even once consider working for less. Ever.

2 - people who think it's ok to work for less money so long as there is some exchange involved which may not be monetary, but for example could help get into a new area of the industry, build portfolio, etc..

3 - people who think discussing this on the internet is pointless because of geography, goals, range experience, saturation, luck, etc..
Click to expand...

I fall into Camp #2.

The last few years for pay I’ve had a range of decent paying jobs - network promos, sports docs for the various professional teams in Los Angeles and ENG jobs. It’s fun and nice to get a paycheck, but my ultimate goal is to DP (and get paid for) filming dramatic, scripted work.

However, unless you are shooting a series on Netlix, dramatic scripted work usually involves little to no money since it’s all indy type stuff, so the only way I get to practice and add the clips I want to my reel, involves working for low to no pay. If someone approaches me for a Ultra Low Budget project, I always stipulate that it has to be dramatic and involve lots of lighting and they have to shell out at least $400 a day to hire my gaffer (which is his drastically reduced indy rate). I did shoot a comedic (a first for me) web series last week, but that was paid. I won’t do comedy for free as that’s not the direction I’m headed.

So ULBs are no comedy, no reality, no doc; for ULBs it's only gritty, moody drama, horror, action, music videos, etc… Artistic shots are what I’m after and practice shooting narrative work.

So basically, I do the paid jobs so I can afford to do the ULB scripted stuff which hopefully will lead to bigger and better things. I did not get into filmmaking for the money that for sure. If I would have stayed full time with my Motion Graphics / VFX jobs (which I still do to part-time to make cash), I would be making way more cash but that does not make me happy. I got into filmmaking for the love of it, not the money, as nothing makes me happier than shooting.

So until the pipe dream of getting paid to shoot moody, scripted stuff happens, in my off time I’m shooting one or two free projects every month for my reel. Right now, adding clips to my reel is just as important as making money. Chasing the dream and continuing to define my style of shooting.

Shameless plug. I just finished editing a new reel this morning. About 20% Canon, 40% FS700 and 40% FS7 and even a few shots in 35mm film.

 
Publimix said:
This isn't a threat about sony, though I see a lot of professionals here and thats what my question is about
I am busy finishing a translation of a popular book in the Netherlands.
This book contains methods to calculate your hourly rate and different ways to calculate prices. It also contains different pricing strategies and tips and tricks for making business propositions and offers.
And it contains 150 hour-rates of different freelance job titles, with minimum, average and high hourly rates.

As I am based in the Netherlands I know the market here. I can imagine this title is also interesting in America and England.
The German version is ready. This book is often used by freelancers to calculate their hour-rate. Also it is used during price negotiations. (Wave with the book, to show the rates asked are common).
I really like to know if you would be interested so I can have it translated.
Click to expand...

Rates are subjective at best. I base mine on union scale and up it for 10 hour rate and then give it a little boost. Remember union scale is just that. That's minimum paid.
Generally people want a package rate including sound person and all gear. I hit hard, heavy and often. I know what I want so I bring it up. If they bite, then it's score time for me. But if they haggle, then I have room and everyone is happy. They're happy they could negotiate a lower rate and I get what I wanted. If you start with what you want, they will try and bring you down anyway and you get screwed.
As an aside, I am not afraid to ask up front what they usually pay or what they want to pay. That breaks the ice and then it's up to you to either take it or leave it or make the offer you want. Many times they take it. It's all about the gamble.
 
this is all personal experience and so this discussion is somewhat pointless (one person's wrong is another person's right) but I disagree that starting high works, at least all the time. Ive had more people than I can count never respond after I send the quote, and many others simply say something along the lines of "oh that's too much. thanks but we'll look elsewhere." no haggling, nothing. I think the "how much do you want to spend?" approach is a good one, but apt to backfire as often as not---there's probably a 50% chance they think how "how much do you want to spend?" means whatever they tell you, that's what you're going to charge them, and they get freaked out and scram.
 
Ben Scott said:
But if you charge and get £100 per day more than me that's great for you, but it doesn't have any bearing on what I charge or what I could possibly get away with charging.

Every time someone tells me they can get someone cheaper than me I very politely and positively suggest they go with that person, because I am not in competition with them on price.

I don't get hired because of my price. I get hired because (hopefully) I am good.
Click to expand...

Totally right.
However, I might suggest that it is not just because one is "good".
It is because one has a way of seeing the world and a signature which is unique.
I constantly see an attempt to reduce visual artists to their tools (and we particiapte in that too) or to treat them as merely technicians.

My feeling is that if you want what I have, then you should be willing to pay a reasonable price for it.

However, the reality of today is often the opposite. It starts with the budget. And those have gone down considerably.
And the one who determines the budget is not the Art Director, it's the money guy. Who doesn't care about your uniqueness.
So, either you work within the budget or you don't make the cut.

Unfortunately, I have watched budgets drop with the "democratization" of all of the graphic arts industries.
The only answer that I can see to all of this is to become so special in terms of what you do that really no one else can offer this.
But you are still going to need an art director to fight for you.
 
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