Pmw F5 & F55

I'm all for it as "progress" happens anyway but my main point is that I think you could show pro 1080/2K shot material on a 4K screen and the simple fact that its being naturally uprezzed would fool 99% of people that its 4K originally. Again, DR and color in the cameras is really what sets quality apart for now. Similar to how pro 16:9 SD looked better than HDV cameras when blown up to film, such as the feature docs released at the time.

I disagree on the TV thing, based on the three 4K monitors I have seen so far. I'd love to do a test of a 46" Viera THX 1080p TV against a 4K TV of the same size. Put some cardboard around the edges to hide the make/model and set people 7-8 feet away and see how many people get it wrong, or right.

Did anyone else see Superman Returns on IMAX? Never saw a "resolution" issue with its 1080 camera so all of this is pretty interesting. Skin tones on the other hand....

Interesting article. Maybe a lot of those complainers were guys who bought red cams several years ago thinking that would somehow make their films more valuable. People still try to justify shooting vimeo short films and once-viewed festival indies on red cams. They have to take out the frustration of not getting anywhere on someone. ;)
 
Last edited:
There is nothing to say that digital cannot some day exceed the resolution of film, although even at 4K film inherently has more resolution from my understanding. I really like the idea of being able to capture both 1080 and 4K simultaneously when you want to, to have a "future proof" version should the need arise. Obviously this will be more useful to those shooting real potentially "classic" movies than those making more limited productions (like myself -- perfectly happy with the F3).

What no one has mentioned yet, and is a concern to me about the F5 is the 2000 ISO with S-Log2. I find that the 800 ISO of the F3 is almost too much and even with the 3/6 stop built in filters, outdoors on a sunny day, you need to stop down to f/5.6 or 8 with the 1.8 filter, and at twilight, without the filters I rarely get down to below f/4. It has to be almost dark to use very shallow depth of field with the built in filters. It seems that with ISO 2000 one would almost always need external filters besides the built ins (even with ISO 1250 on the F55). I realize this is at 24 fps, and at 60 or 120 fps there is a lot less light, but for most things it seems this could present a problem? Don't get me wrong, I think having a high native ISO is great, but they should have included an extra 3 stop filter (3,6,9) to balance out for the higher ISO capability.
 
lasikdenver said:
There is nothing to say that digital cannot some day exceed the resolution of film, although even at 4K film inherently has more resolution from my understanding. I really like the idea of being able to capture both 1080 and 4K simultaneously when you want to, to have a "future proof" version should the need arise. Obviously this will be more useful to those shooting real potentially "classic" movies than those making more limited productions (like myself -- perfectly happy with the F3).

What no one has mentioned yet, and is a concern to me about the F5 is the 2000 ISO with S-Log2. I find that the 800 ISO of the F3 is almost too much and even with the 3/6 stop built in filters, outdoors on a sunny day, you need to stop down to f/5.6 or 8 with the 1.8 filter, and at twilight, without the filters I rarely get down to below f/4. It has to be almost dark to use very shallow depth of field with the built in filters. It seems that with ISO 2000 one would almost always need external filters besides the built ins (even with ISO 1250 on the F55). I realize this is at 24 fps, and at 60 or 120 fps there is a lot less light, but for most things it seems this could present a problem? Don't get me wrong, I think having a high native ISO is great, but they should have included an extra 3 stop filter (3,6,9) to balance out for the higher ISO capability.
Click to expand...

I've asked this a few times already and waiting for an answer, but if in SLOG2 ISO is 2000 then in non-slog it will be 1000, so closer to the F3 native ISO of 800 (in 24p 1/48th 0db REC 709 mode)

I hear what you are saying, on a sunny day outdoors I always have 1.8 engaged and then throwing on .3 or .6 or both to get to f2.8 to f4. I stopped using 4x4 because its faster to just screw on-off whatever extra ND filter I need. ISO 2000 (if it is in fact that) means I would have to start using .9, 1.2, etc.. no big deal I guess but 3 stops built-in filter would have been a great idea.
 
One nice point with the cameras, and this is a point I think a few people are missing when they consider the price of the 'body only', is that this isn't the same thing as a Red 'brain only'. You don't HAVE to buy the other standard accessories to get anything working - you can throw one of your existing V-mount batteries on the rear end of the camera, attach your existing Zacuto/SmallHD/Cineroid/Alphatron/etc. EVF to one of the monitoring outputs, and get shooting straight away with nothing more than some SxS media (of one sort or another).
 
Grug said:
One nice point with the cameras, and this is a point I think a few people are missing when they consider the price of the 'body only', is that this isn't the same thing as a Red 'brain only'. You don't HAVE to buy the other standard accessories to get anything working - you can throw one of your existing V-mount batteries on the rear end of the camera, attach your existing Zacuto/SmallHD/Cineroid/Alphatron/etc. EVF to one of the monitoring outputs, and get shooting straight away with nothing more than some SxS media (of one sort or another).
Click to expand...

Agree, agree...... But what is the price!!!!
 
Grug said:
One nice point with the cameras, and this is a point I think a few people are missing when they consider the price of the 'body only', is that this isn't the same thing as a Red 'brain only'. You don't HAVE to buy the other standard accessories to get anything working - you can throw one of your existing V-mount batteries on the rear end of the camera, attach your existing Zacuto/SmallHD/Cineroid/Alphatron/etc. EVF to one of the monitoring outputs, and get shooting straight away with nothing more than some SxS media (of one sort or another).
Click to expand...

I've wondered why people keep harping on the F55 requiring an external recorder to do 4K RAW when in essence Red does also. The fact is both cameras require you to purchase another part in order to shoot 4KRAW. The question is how much the external recorder for the sony will be in comparison to the SSD recorder for Red. At least on the F55 you get some nice record formats built into the brain which will hit most peoples work needs (4K compressed, 2K and 1080p)

Depending on price I imagine a lot of users will just rent the recorder for the shoots here and there that require RAW 4K
 
I'm going to keep saying it until I see a price. Don't price these based on your current offerings. Price these based on your competition (that currently owns the market) pricing. Beat scarlet, c300, epic, etc pricing and sony in one fell swoop dominates the market.
 
Look at the Creative ventures again... 15k euro for the F5... 19k Euro for the F55.

F5
October 30 update: Our MIP Maximum Invoice Price has been set @ 14995 Euro.
Click to expand...

F55
October 30 update: Our MIP Maximum Invoice Price has been set @ 18995 Euro.
Click to expand...

Note these are NOT deposite prices........... there is a seperate article number for the deposit, which in case of the F55 is: 500 euros.

RED just lost the game.... for now ;)

From Jigsaw42:

The PMW-F55 Comes with a Professional standard Monocular over OLED Viewfinder which provides crystal clear optical reference for the camera. Being OLED this of course gives you all the benefits of OLED such as the hight contrast ratio and correct colour saturation all the way down to the blacks.
Click to expand...

and I bet it comes with a simple SxS pro card, but nothing fancy, so you can shoot, but you should probably factor in purchasing 2-3 of those to get some room for unloading while shooting.
Also probaly a simple battery, but if you already have a rig setup with a v-mount plate, then there's no expense there either.

I think this camera is beginning to look more and more tasty.
 
Last edited:
legrevedotcom said:
Look at the Creative ventures again... 15k euro for the F5... 19k Euro for the F55.
Click to expand...

If these prices are correct, I find the F5 a little high but I'm surprised by the small gap in price between the 2.

The F5 needs to compete with the C300 in the broadcast market and whilst it undoubtedly offers more features, once kitted out, it will be around twice the price of the C300. (C300 can be bought for approx £8,500+VAT and F5 would be around £12,000+VAT plus EVF, shoulder mount. Also lens mounts, dearer batteries and memory cards.)

As an owner operator, you have to ask, would a producer pay the extra when they already love the images from the C300? Can I recoup the additional investment through higher kit rental? I can see F5 rates being higher than the C300 but not double. However, I think the F5 will be relevant for longer, offering better codecs, framerates and 4K upgrades, so maybe in the longer term, it is worthwhile.

The F55 is aimed more at the Alexa/Epic and the rental market. This market isn't so cost conscious and quality and feature set is king. I think that Sony could charge more for the F55 but given Red's announcements recently, this appears competitive.

Personally I would have pitched at F5 - $15K, £10K .....F55 $25K, £16,500. Very interested to hear final pricing!
 
The wires just gonna foul other controls etc

ND - I think they just feel a need to kill huge ISO, seems OK to me, finer choices would be made with matte box.

S
 
Just called 3dbroadcastsales to get a confirmation on the pricing area in relation to Creative ventures... they'll get back to me as soon as possible.
 
I like to see 25k US for the F55... figure EVF is separate...

I really don't think it could... but it would be nice for an option so that you can ramp your fps... really like for example shooting normal... slow mo.. then back to normal... or vice versa...
 
GaryinCalifornia said:
I like to see 25k US for the F55... figure EVF is separate...

I really don't think it could... but it would be nice for an option so that you can ramp your fps... really like for example shooting normal... slow mo.. then back to normal... or vice versa...
Click to expand...

I'd expect the F55 to be closer to $30K. At that price it's still in the range of a C500 with an AJA Quad, but it will do equivilant recording witout the extra pieces and power demands. Honestly see no reason they would need to price it much below $30K.
 
coltonokeefe said:
I'd expect the F55 to be closer to $30K. At that price it's still in the range of a C500 with an AJA Quad, but it will do equivilant recording witout the extra pieces and power demands. Honestly see no reason they would need to price it much below $30K.
Click to expand...

Yeah, that is kind of what I think it will cost. With the "Out the door" price, with bells and whistles probably closer to $40K -$45K. The big competitive question is going to be the price of the F5.
 
morgan_moore said:
Tell me this is not WTF.. honestly almost a dealbreaker IMO
Click to expand...
Hmm, not much point if doing dual system sound, unless you want to send audio back to the mixer for some reason. No one is seriously going to be shouldering the camera and monitoring at once.

Honestly, it's a miracle that this is the only part Sony botched up, if that really is the final design.
 
Last edited:
Kolor-Pikker said:
....... No one is seriously going to be shouldering the camera and monitoring at once.

...
Click to expand...
I do a lot of run and gun while I am not sure this is the camera for run and gunning for those times when it is used that way I would most defiantly be monitoring sound. since there was no place on the back of the camera for the headphone jack I would rather have it on the side it is now on than the other side, Sony could have placed it further back though.
 
David G. Smith said:
Yeah, that is kind of what I think it will cost. With the "Out the door" price, with bells and whistles probably closer to $40K -$45K. The big competitive question is going to be the price of the F5.
Click to expand...
I'm also hearing there will be a lot of "early adopter" promo's, ie, buy an F5/F55 in the first 60 days and get the recorder at 1/2 price, or the OLED VF for like $1000. Stuff like that. Nothing confirmed, and it's all just rumour, but when you hear similar things from multiple sources it makes you think.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top