starcentral
Veteran
My sources are indicating $40k/$45k for F55 including ext. RAW recorder. But of course all speculative.
Pmw F5 & F55
- Thread starter Nate Weaver
- Start date
My sources are indicating $40k/$45k for F55 including ext. RAW recorder. But of course all speculative.
FrameFarmMedia
Veteran
It would make sense to price it right at the ready to shoot cost of an Epic Dragon package. Really it is the Dragon Epic it will be competing against.
coltonokeefe
Member
Possible if the recorder is $10K-$15K. I think it will be closer to $5K-$10K though. I can't see Sony pricing their own, propriatary recorder higher than the new Codex. That would just be a bad business move. Not putting it past them though.
starcentral
Veteran
Yes the AXS has to be moderately priced because remember it's needed for the FS700 folks who already have to spend $2000 (MSRP) on the HXR module to interface with it.
I think in our eyes they compete with each other but from Sony perspective I don't think Sony thinks RED is really competition. Canon is more competition to Sony than RED.
So in other words I don't see Sony taking any price dictation to RED/Dragon, etc.. etc.. I still see two very different markets here but time will tell once prices are released and units start shipping.
Here are some of my predictions;
Early adopters will acquire F55 with notion of recording 4k internally with codec (even though clients don't ask for it, nor is it being broadcasted). These F55'ers will feel good they are "future proofed" and can go the full RAW route even though most don't ever foresee getting into the game of 1TB per 60 minutes of footage anytime soon. Nor are many of them experienced in grading professionally (as we saw with some of the attempts grading SLOG that hit the interweb - including some of my own
). RAW has very very limited applications. The RED guys are dictating to me that once I've graded RAW footage I would see what all the rage is about - but how many of these guys were grading before RED? I refer them to my recent Movember video web-series I shot in 35mbps 8-bit 420 and ask then what they think about it. 
Other F3 owners may dump their Frankenstien'd F3 rigs with external 10-bit recorder and power requirements for a nice smaller packaged F5 camera. Probably the way the F3 should have been. And with 2k internal recording a possibility, that too is pretty cool. Again with 4k RAW recording in reach for those who really fear they will need it one day plus want that flexibility between the speed and ease of use of something like the F5 and potential of a "RED" - the F5 makes a pretty easy sell.
Lastly the guys already shooting RED would not even contemplate F5/F55, they are happy with the workflow and process they've already become accustomed too so there is no reason to jump ship. Having said that, the guys who are pissed at RED for losing $15k on their "investment" overnight I can definitely see setting up a Sony (or Canon) camp as a result sometime soon.
Time will tell all, time will tell....
Last edited:
coltonokeefe
Member
Yes the AXS has to be moderately priced because remember it's needed for the FS700 folks who already have to spend $2000 (MSRP) on the HXR module to interface with it.
I think in our eyes they compete with each other but from Sony perspective I don't think Sony thinks RED is really competition. Canon is more competition to Sony than RED.
So in other words I don't see Sony taking any price dictation to RED/Dragon, etc.. etc.. I still see two very different markets here but time will tell once prices are released and units start shipping.
Here are some of my predictions;
Early adopters will acquire F55 with notion of recording 4k internally with codec (even though clients don't ask for it, nor is it being broadcasted). These F55'ers will feel good they are "future proofed" and can go the full RAW route even though most don't ever foresee getting into the game of 1TB per 60 minutes of footage anytime soon. Nor are many of them experienced in grading professionally (as we saw with some of the attempts grading SLOG that hit the interweb - including some of my own
Other F3 owners may dump their Frankenstien'd F3 rigs with external 10-bit recorder and power requirements for a nice smaller packaged F5 camera. Probably the way the F3 should have been. And with 2k internal recording possible, that is pretty cool. Again with 4k RAW in reach for those who really want that flexibility between the speed and ease of use of a "F3" but with quality potential of a "RED".
Lastly the guys already shooting RED would not even contemplate F5/F55, they are happy with the workflow and process they've already become accustomed too so there is no reason to jump ship. Having said that, the guys who are pissed at RED for losing $15k on their "investment" overnight I can definitely see setting up a Sony (or Canon) camp as a result sometime soon.
Time will tell all, time will tell....
^ very much this
Red isn't the competition Sony is going after, it's Canon. Red/Arri/Aaton, just all got in the crossfire.
Don't flame me here, but I honestly don't think Red will be around in 2-3 years. I could be completely wrong, and will fully admit that, but Jim from Red had said on numerous occassions that Red was a company trying to offer what the others big guys weren't/couldn't. They had their own little niche and they did quite well with it. Jim even went so far as to say that once the big guys caught up in technology he would probably back out of the game. At the end of the day, he's a business man who saw a void in the market and capitalized on it (good for him) but now that Sony (and soon Canon/Panasonic) have caught up, and they have much larger R&D budgets and financial support I wouldn't be surprised to see Red close up shop after the Dragon sensor has shipped.
If you were a business man and just had to cut 45% of pure profit off your most popular product, it's time to reevaluate what you're doing. That either means start development on "the next big thing", or call it a day, be happy with what you've done and the money you made, and move on.
EDIT: Hell, this is entirely speculation on my part, but what if the price drop was just Jim trying to clear out all the remaining stock.
GaryinCalifornia
Veteran
Trying to figure this out... tried to use the below link... but no Pro Res 4k (not raw) listed... not sure if you can double 2k Pro Res (444)... to get an idea of how much storage you need for an hour of footage...
http://www.digitalrebellion.com/webapps/video_calc.html
I personally think your "sources" are a good $10K off on their pricing. There has been alot of internet buzz already that it might come in at $25K, but I guess only time will tell.
There is no way that the 4K recorder is going to be $10-15K, I would be surprised to see it at $5K myself.
Ryan
There is no way that the 4K recorder is going to be $10-15K, I would be surprised to see it at $5K myself.
Ryan
starcentral
Veteran
^^^
If you follow the history and words from Jim you'd probably gather that Jim is very much the kind of guy who likes to turn heads, defy others, be seen as a "game changer" and looking back it is pretty obvious that RED (Jim) thrives on this. I can honestly see what you're saying here, ie. once the "others" catch up or possibly even exceed RED's offering - RED will go out with a bang.. hm,, perhaps even GIVING AWAY REDS FREE as a last, final resort.
Man this reminds me of "Good Fellas".
starcentral
Veteran
You need to quadruple it, not double. :happy:
1 hour of 2k ProRes 4444 = 132GB
But this brings up another interesting point I've been having in my head. Why would I want to INVEST in Sony's codec when I'm going 4k?
4k is such a rare breed that most clients/people have their own idea of what codec it should be in for their project. So are we REALLY going to add another 4k recorder to our system just to satisfy these people? Or are we going to just record Sony RAW and transcode in post for a few hours later on?
This is the hang up I have with the all-in-one Sony solution and why it won't appeal to those "serious" about 4k.
GaryinCalifornia
Veteran
I was figuring doubling would be too low...
starcentral
Veteran
Just compare REDcodeRAW 2k to REDcodeRAW 4k. It goes from 25GB to about 95'ish GB.
Same as 3G can support 2k 444 you need FOUR of them to support 4k 444. If you only had two 3G ports then you could do 4k but in 422 color space not 444.
How much wood could a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood?
Lenilenapi
Carbonite Member
I'm sure this has been covered but I don't see it quickly so :
Will the F5 record 10 bit internally to SxS cards or only to SxSPro? Won't be recording to Pro Res I assume and that also begs the question of whether Apple will support the new codec in FCP 7.
I'm trying tio figure out whether my new Samurai will still have any role to play in the new world order.
Will the F5 record 10 bit internally to SxS cards or only to SxSPro? Won't be recording to Pro Res I assume and that also begs the question of whether Apple will support the new codec in FCP 7.
I'm trying tio figure out whether my new Samurai will still have any role to play in the new world order.
starcentral
Veteran
Looks like pro+ media for XAVC 10-bit 422
(left column F55, right column F5)
(left column F55, right column F5)
I think that Sony will surprise us ALL!
What about the price pointed by CreativeVentures for : Camera+4K Recorder+ the cheapest Finder…….If you look close in their site there is prepared advert only for both cameras and OLED finder ….NO ext.recorder!
You guys are forgetting that those cameras are fighting for the movie market not much for TV. There is one very important company no one mention in this fight and this is ARRI.
If Sony have what they announced and they advertise those cameras ,as Sony’s new beginning ( they have changed the ergonomics witch was primary STOP sign for some people), with the new body designs , Alexa is not far from leaving the market….But lets not forget that this is ARRI! I think that they are going to pull rabbit out of the had as soon as the new SxS cards reach the market. May be …….onboard RAW????Or The native Alexa resolution to SxS onboard ????We will find out soon!
My two cents !
What about the price pointed by CreativeVentures for : Camera+4K Recorder+ the cheapest Finder…….If you look close in their site there is prepared advert only for both cameras and OLED finder ….NO ext.recorder!
You guys are forgetting that those cameras are fighting for the movie market not much for TV. There is one very important company no one mention in this fight and this is ARRI.
If Sony have what they announced and they advertise those cameras ,as Sony’s new beginning ( they have changed the ergonomics witch was primary STOP sign for some people), with the new body designs , Alexa is not far from leaving the market….But lets not forget that this is ARRI! I think that they are going to pull rabbit out of the had as soon as the new SxS cards reach the market. May be …….onboard RAW????Or The native Alexa resolution to SxS onboard ????We will find out soon!
My two cents !
Alister Chapman - Are the F5 and F55 going to be game-changers?
Alister Chapman - Are the F5 and F55 going to be game-changers?
"My guess, and this is a guess, given that the F3 will continue to be a current model is that the PMW-F5 will be in the region of $18k – $24k for the body only. The F55 with it’s extra features and global shutter $32k to $40k. I guess the ASX-R5 will be around $8k – $10k and the DVF-L350 about $3k-$4k."
http://www.xdcam-user.com/2012/11/are-the-f5-and-f55-going-to-be-game-changers/
Alister Chapman - Are the F5 and F55 going to be game-changers?
"My guess, and this is a guess, given that the F3 will continue to be a current model is that the PMW-F5 will be in the region of $18k – $24k for the body only. The F55 with it’s extra features and global shutter $32k to $40k. I guess the ASX-R5 will be around $8k – $10k and the DVF-L350 about $3k-$4k."
http://www.xdcam-user.com/2012/11/are-the-f5-and-f55-going-to-be-game-changers/
This would be game lost for Sony
Again, it is just a "guess", until we know for certain, anyone can throw around numbers
starcentral
Veteran
I wrote a response to Alister's post in his blog.
(but waiting moderation) :huh:
Here's what I said:
coltonokeefe
Member
I'm curious to see his response. To be fair though, I fully expect the XAVC to be the codec of choice in most future video cameras for the next 2 years, that or HEAVC.