Isn't it true that those numbers drop by half when shooting progressive mode, like the F3?
Pmw F5 & F55
- Thread starter Nate Weaver
- Start date
Isn't it true that those numbers drop by half when shooting progressive mode, like the F3?
starcentral
Veteran
Yep.
It's also true that SLOG doubles ISO, so in reality these values may be the ISO values in "SLOG" while in REC 709 would be half those ISO's.
I read somewhere (I think facebook live chat with Sony) they were going to be trying to get near 2000, as if they were still working on programming optimization to maximize ISO of the sensor).
It's also true that SLOG doubles ISO, so in reality these values may be the ISO values in "SLOG" while in REC 709 would be half those ISO's.
I read somewhere (I think facebook live chat with Sony) they were going to be trying to get near 2000, as if they were still working on programming optimization to maximize ISO of the sensor).
Audio Rant-
From looking at the pictures carefully and seeing no traditional pots, I have to assume you must have set rec audio levels via menu/jog wheel?
I'm still not clear how one would get 4 discreet channels of audio into this camera...anyone know?
The location of the headphone output is unfortunate, I can see wearing headphones while handheld will force that headphone jack right into your cheek...not to mention an audio op doing a long wrap around the camera for return audio monitoring.
Is there even a headphone volume control?
And that screw-on audio input box looks like a total kludge. Nothing like walking around hooking your audio cables on stuff as you pass by.
All in all, the audio totally looks like an afterthought on this design.
And before someone says "but it's a cinema camera!" I say BS. I know for sure there are hundreds of camera ops like me that are going to do run and gun reality, doc and news magazine shooting with these cameras, just like with the F3.
Bad design, Sony.
From looking at the pictures carefully and seeing no traditional pots, I have to assume you must have set rec audio levels via menu/jog wheel?
I'm still not clear how one would get 4 discreet channels of audio into this camera...anyone know?
The location of the headphone output is unfortunate, I can see wearing headphones while handheld will force that headphone jack right into your cheek...not to mention an audio op doing a long wrap around the camera for return audio monitoring.
Is there even a headphone volume control?
And that screw-on audio input box looks like a total kludge. Nothing like walking around hooking your audio cables on stuff as you pass by.
All in all, the audio totally looks like an afterthought on this design.
And before someone says "but it's a cinema camera!" I say BS. I know for sure there are hundreds of camera ops like me that are going to do run and gun reality, doc and news magazine shooting with these cameras, just like with the F3.
Bad design, Sony.
bruceallen
Well-known member
Nope! These are for progressive. Also, BTW - the guy in the Sony video demoing progressive raw capture mentioned the F55 was rated at ISO 1600 in RAW mode. So these numbers probably depend on a few factors like how much highlight latitude you want, how much shadow noise you can tolerate, etc.
The only way to get 4 channels is via the digital AES / EBU inputs (two channels per XLR).
Personally, I find the idea of feeding the camera pristine digital audio from my Sound Devices box damn awesome. If the audio is a perfect digital replica of what my Sound Devices is sending out, then hooray - I can have dual-system quality, with the workflow of single-system. A huge step up for me.
However, I am pernickety and never liked built-in camera preamps. For guys who always just plugged the mics into the XLR ports in the camera, I can see this being a step back. But seriously... you're filming with a $20,000 camera. A MixPre-D is only $600 and combined with a F5 or F55 you should get markedly-better audio than plugging straight into an F3. My 2c.
Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
Im not to worried about the XLR inputs but I agree with everything else you just mentioned. It's hard enough on the F3 when running hand held to reach behind your ear to adjust the input levels, this will make it even trickier I assume.
Nate Weaver
Veteran
I think this camera is going after Alexa and Red. Jobs with sound mixers. When I'm working like that, I don't want knobs I can bump. I'm actually very happy this camera is not going after the run + gun method.
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BobbyMurcerFan
Well-known member
It's certainly a competitor but it's hardly a hands down winner. When I read about the new codecs, new memory cards, new card reader, my mind goes numb. Esp. since we just got a new round of codecs, cards and readers from Sony about a years ago. And the workflow is only a nebulus promise by NLE, FX and finishing apps. There's no DNxHD or ProRes and I certainly can't bring XDCAM-XRV or whatever it's called into Media Composer or Resolve, today... nor do I want to be a beta tester for it when the cams start to ship.
The viewfinder looks like a quasi-toy. I still don't know why people love to put XLR's on the side of the camera and toward the front. The simplifed buttons are still very confusing. These cameras are far from perfect and they are not game changers or the future now or whatever else they are claimed to be. They are very nice and powerful tools amongst many other very nice and powerful tools.
dustylense
Veteran
Thats why you get your settings and then lock the camera. But this is also not a run and gun camera.
BobbyMurcerFan
Well-known member
WTF do you mean "when shooting progressive mode?" What other mode is there? Interlaced?
starcentral
Veteran
If those ISO values Sony is kicking around the web are indeed SLOG / RAW mode then in REC709 to MPEG/XAVC wouldn't they actually be HALF of what's been claimed? Anyone confirm this?
Oh man, I can't see interlaced specs anywhere! Rip off, rip off,
:happy:
I hear what your saying Nate, I tape down a number of switches on my F3 that I cant afford to inadvertently bump when shooting hand held. One switch on the new F's that really caught my eye was the Lock lever on the upper left of the left side of the camera, I assume it locks out all of the buttons so accidents cant happen. While I do work with a sound man 50% of the time, the variety of my work ranges widely, from one man band doc jobs with a low budget to broadcast to national commercial work (Alexa & Red jobs traditionally). With the F3 & Samurai I've never been not able to meet a clients technical demands. A camera like the F5 would expand the higher end needs that some of my clients have, forgoing having to rent an Alexa for example and more money in my pocket. I think my basic point is as versatile as the F3 was, the F5 covers even a broader range and if it's priced at under 20k I'd be stupid not to move up. I still want my audio pots though ;-)
Matt Gottshalk
Resident Preditor
If it IS going after the Alexa market, then they should have put the controls on the dumb side of the camera where they belong.
Bad move.
BobbyMurcerFan
Well-known member
Okay, but you also might want to consider the cost of new accessories as well. It looks like the new F's use a whole new array of cards and readers which need to be purchased. And can any of Sony's previous external recorders a new F? On the other hand, Scarlet accessories work on Epic. And both should work on Dragon.
And what's Sony's upgrade policy? If you own an Epic, you can upgrade to Red's next cam for $6K. Scarlet owners will have to pay more. But can F3 owners pay any price to upgrade to a new F?
Viddovation
Veteran
Well, I sell my F3 (dvxuser, ebay, craigslist), get say, $9k for it, then apply that to a F5 or F55 purchase. Easy!
That firmware updates will be free this time around significantly increases my interest in this camera.
Yes, they're both modular (though if Sony isn't just using that to save size/weight and actually lets you upgrade some components while keeping others (like Red), I'll eat my hat).
But still, not quite the same thing.
Epic itself has the ability to encode raw files. The media slot itself (the recorder) simply moved to a very inexpensive module. Presumably they do this only because you can select the one that attaches to the side of the body, or the one that attaches to the back - or both, for continuous recording.
My understanding is that the C500, F5, and even F55 (yes, it records 4K onboard, but still not raw) simply output uncompressed data which you can encode and record into a raw file with a VERY EXPENSIVE optional econder/recorder.
If I'm wrong about that, apologies in advance.
Yes, they're both modular (though if Sony isn't just using that to save size/weight and actually lets you upgrade some components while keeping others (like Red), I'll eat my hat).
But still, not quite the same thing.
Epic itself has the ability to encode raw files. The media slot itself (the recorder) simply moved to a very inexpensive module. Presumably they do this only because you can select the one that attaches to the side of the body, or the one that attaches to the back - or both, for continuous recording.
My understanding is that the C500, F5, and even F55 (yes, it records 4K onboard, but still not raw) simply output uncompressed data which you can encode and record into a raw file with a VERY EXPENSIVE optional econder/recorder.
If I'm wrong about that, apologies in advance.
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starcentral
Veteran
Looks like there may be a cheaper way to record RAW externally on the new F55:
dustylense
Veteran
So that recorder still comes with the Atari button?
cowpunk52
Veteran
Yeah, this is something I was speaking with a couple of other operators about today. Even if you're solo, when the cam is on your shoulder, aren't those buttons & LCD going to be against your cheek and the side of your head? Seems like a very odd placement, but maybe I'm missing something.
Steve Castle
Well-known member
Putting a global shutter on CMOS has incredibly challenging, a lot of companies have shown different concepts, but I'm not surprised that Sony is the first to commercialize it.
Essentially, a global shutter requires that each photosite have its own pixel-level memory. Its additional cost and additional real estate on the sensor, so each photodiode will have reduced quantum efficiency. Hiterto, its never been cost effective to add a global shutter as people have learnt to deal with rolling-shutter.
Sony is a good generation ahead of the competition when it comes to CMOS sensors, and they've been experimenting with some pretty unique concepts; stacked-sensors, double-bayer, RGBW CFAs, tilted photosites, Foveon-style panchromatic pixels, etc. Sony has likely found the right combination of technologies that give it the desired trade-off of quantum efficiency from the photodiode and integrated pixel-level memory. Its quite an accomplishment.
I'm wondering if the F55 is using the double-bayer filter array like the F65? It obviously is not the same sensor as the F65 as the F65 uses a mechanical global shutter and not an electric one.
Either way, Sony has raised the bar for camera sensors. I'm sure other camera makers are scrambling to integrate electronic global shutters in their next sensors. I'm sure we'll see others down the road.
Essentially, a global shutter requires that each photosite have its own pixel-level memory. Its additional cost and additional real estate on the sensor, so each photodiode will have reduced quantum efficiency. Hiterto, its never been cost effective to add a global shutter as people have learnt to deal with rolling-shutter.
Sony is a good generation ahead of the competition when it comes to CMOS sensors, and they've been experimenting with some pretty unique concepts; stacked-sensors, double-bayer, RGBW CFAs, tilted photosites, Foveon-style panchromatic pixels, etc. Sony has likely found the right combination of technologies that give it the desired trade-off of quantum efficiency from the photodiode and integrated pixel-level memory. Its quite an accomplishment.
I'm wondering if the F55 is using the double-bayer filter array like the F65? It obviously is not the same sensor as the F65 as the F65 uses a mechanical global shutter and not an electric one.
Either way, Sony has raised the bar for camera sensors. I'm sure other camera makers are scrambling to integrate electronic global shutters in their next sensors. I'm sure we'll see others down the road.