Pmw F5 & F55

Mitch Gross said:
You are confusing the Color Filter Array (CFA) with the sensor behind it.

The Sensor
The sensor itself is different on the F5 v. the F55. On the F5 it is a CMOS Rolling Shutter, which means that it does not need a driver on every individual photosite, leaving more physical area for light gathering (aka a higher Fill Factor). This is why it is rated at 2000ISO. The sensor on the F55 is a CMOS Global Shutter, which requires a driver at every single photosite, lowering the Fill Factor so that the sensor is now rated 1280ISO.

CFA
The Color Filter Array (CFA) described the physical mask laid overtop of the sensor which allows it to perceive color information. A sensor is just a brightness gathering device and does not know from color. By using colored dyes over different photosites, a checkerboard of color information can be gathered which can then be interpolated to a full color image. The most common pattern for this mask is Bayer pattern. The precise coloring of the dyes used helps define the range of colors the sensor can capture. The F5 CFA uses dyes for a standard REC709 broadcast colorspace. The F55 CFA uses dyes for an extended colorspace beyond what standard broadcast monitors can reproduce. In fact Sony lays claim to the greatest ranging CFA in existance, with a colorspace beyond the range of any other technology, even film. This extended color gamut is what is shared between the F55 and the F65.
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Good post and excellent clarity. The CVP group website initially said the F55 uses the same sensor as the F65... which was WRONG.
 
Steve R said:
Wow - can we PLEASE stop / correct this stupid rumor (started early in this thread) that the camera doesn't have XLR inputs, or doesn't come with the XLR module, or that pro audio was some kind of compromise or afterthought?? Wrong wrong wrong.

The camera comes with the XLR module (with dual inputs) included, it seems to be in a great location that makes sense (in my opinion) and was well thought-out and well-integrated.

It is NOT a module that snaps on the back. It is NOT an extra-cost accessory. Sony is NOT trying to "milk you for more money".

It's part of the camera in its base configuration - just removable, like many of the cameras we all know and love.
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So basically what you're saying is there is no way to record sound on the new F55?

Man what a bummer.

:cry:
 
What will really put features in perspective will be the price. I just want to see pricing as it has a lot of impact on how the features are perceived. It appears Jannard has put his RED pricing changes off until Nov.1 now so we wait and see what games are being played here.
 
Jay Birch said:
One aspect that people seem to be overlooking is the ability to record 4K in an edit ready, 10bit/4:2:2 codec.

ARRI won alot of fans with their great quality, but easy to use codec. Sony seem to be the 1st to market with a 4K version (the 1D-C gets deserves a mention, but 8bit/4:2:2)
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I think there's a lot to take in and it will be a while before most folks realize what they can do with all these options. After typing this, I realized I myself have not explored some possibilities:

At first I was thinking 4K XAVC @300mbits might be a little too compressed for my liking, but did the math and found it's pretty much the same ballpark as Redcode 36 (or 28, if you're conservative). Of course Redcode is RAW and carrying only one channel of "color", and XAVC is 3 10-bit channels, I think it's reason enough to believe that it will probably look pretty good, especially with MPEG4 efficiencies.

I just made a 4K (4096x2304) ProResHQ movie exported from FCPX, and guess what, that data rate is 360mbits, according to Quicktime PLayer properties. Also played without a hitch on my 2011 17" Macbook Pro. That's pretty impressive. Same export scoots right along in FCPX too. Only drops a few frames while doing a live downconvert to 1080p SDI output via thunderbolt Ultrastudio!
 
RatLabProductions said:
What will really put features in perspective will be the price. I just want to see pricing as it has a lot of impact on how the features are perceived. It appears Jannard has put his RED pricing changes off until Nov.1 now so we wait and see what games are being played here.
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It was always scheduled for the 1st. If you read the first post in that thread.
 
nsoltz said:
Of course you can record sound on the F55. Where is all this nonsense starting?

Ned
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It is nonsense, and here is the article to prove the F55 can record sound!!!

http://www.fdtimes.com/2012/10/30/f5-and-f55-audio-module/


Nate Weaver said:
I think there's a lot to take in and it will be a while before most folks realize what they can do with all these options. After typing this, I realized I myself have not explored some possibilities:

At first I was thinking 4K XAVC @300mbits might be a little too compressed for my liking, but did the math and found it's pretty much the same ballpark as Redcode 36 (or 28, if you're conservative). Of course Redcode is RAW and carrying only one channel of "color", and XAVC is 3 10-bit channels, I think it's reason enough to believe that it will probably look pretty good, especially with MPEG4 efficiencies.

I just made a 4K (4096x2304) ProResHQ movie exported from FCPX, and guess what, that data rate is 360mbits, according to Quicktime PLayer properties. Also played without a hitch on my 2011 17" Macbook Pro. That's pretty impressive. Same export scoots right along in FCPX too. Only drops a few frames while doing a live downconvert to 1080p SDI output via thunderbolt Ultrastudio!
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Yes Nate, I agree too. There is a lot to think about, numbers to crunch (data bits and dollars) and I keep saying we are lucky to live in this era where there truly are so many possibilities and options.
 
You can indeed. We did it today briefly, but only to see if it worked. We're not sound guys, so not much we can say except it definitely has XLRs and phantom power and when we played it back we could hear people talking ...

Not a huge amount else to report from first day's testing TBH. The firmware is very much pre-alpha so only a very limited number of features are working properly at this stage. We'll be recording 4k raw in 23.98 as that works and so I won't be able to comment on XAVC or 2k raw I'm afraid. We've now got to figure out a workflow to get that raw data through FCP and Resolve, fortunately we have a genius working on that who knows some people at Blackmagic.

On the plus side, the global shutter definitely works, it's very sensitive at 1600 ISO and it seems like there's absolutely bundles of latitude there. We shot a few exposure tests and a few tests of the latitude but we won't really find out the results of those until just before we shoot next week.

Ergonomically it feels good. It's very compact, size of an F3 or so. I think we'll be seeing rigs with counterweights as it's that small. Apart from that. the next time we'll be using the camera will be on a set ...
 
RatLabProductions said:
I read somewhere that it was the 31st. My apologies. I just want someone to set market value. So much is up in the air at the moment.
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Actually, there's a post from Jannard on that thread (#19) that says today. Which is what I remember as well.

Whatever, doesn't matter. He's going to have to post his number before Sony posts theirs (not that it's even close to an apples-apples comparison). And on top of that, I'm sure both companies have particular numbers they need to hit so it's not like this showdown even means much.
 
I stopped reading at raw recording still being offboard. C500 competitor, not Epic competitor, just like I've been saying. Yawn.

Plus, how much do you think they're charging for that 120fps firmware update (that they've must've already written and tested to confirm the hardware can handle it). Same old Sony.

Edit : I am very intrigued by the use of a different battery tech...
 
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Scanners286 said:
We've now got to figure out a workflow to get that raw data through FCP and Resolve, fortunately we have a genius working on that who knows some people at Blackmagic.
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Resolve has been able to take F65 raw for some time now, but it's a guess if F55 raw is formatted the same and Resolve can take it.

Probably have to make edit proxies using Sony's software (or maybe XDCAM simultaneous is working now?)

Good news is that however you make your proxies, as long as you have TC and reel numbers, Resolve is very good about taking EDLs + XMLs from proxy edits and being smart enough to get your full res media swapped in. It's much smarter than FCP or any other NLE when it comes to that.
 
Lee Saxon said:
I stopped reading at raw recording still being offboard.
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To me, the "off board" raw recorder is so well integrated, it might be as well onboard. Just more money. And the F55 DOES do 4K onboard.

Lee Saxon said:
Plus, how much do you think they're charging for that 120fps firmware update (that they've must've already written and tested to confirm the hardware can handle it). Same old Sony.
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If I recall correctly they've said the updates will be free. In addition Sony was very clear up front with the F3 that the updates they charged for would be $$, from the very first day of promotion. Not only do I think they've learned their lesson on that, the implication so far is that they will be no charge.
 
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Lee Saxon said:
I stopped reading at raw recording still being offboard. C500 competitor, not Epic competitor, just like I've been saying. Yawn.

Plus, how much do you think they're charging for that 120fps firmware update (that they've must've already written and tested to confirm the hardware can handle it). Same old Sony.

Edit : I am very intrigued by the use of a different battery tech...
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I thought I herd all the updates were free but that could be the proposed one's for the F5 and F55, but considering the price of the F65 I would think free would make sense, then again what is another thousand on top of the price of the F65, just mere pocket change.
 
Nate Weaver said:
Resolve has been able to take F65 raw for some time now, but it's a guess if F55 raw is formatted the same and Resolve can take it.

Probably have to make edit proxies using Sony's software (or maybe XDCAM simultaneous is working now?)

Good news is that however you make your proxies, as long as you have TC and reel numbers, Resolve is very good about taking EDLs + XMLs from proxy edits and being smart enough to get your full res media swapped in. It's much smarter than FCP or any other NLE when it comes to that.
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Thanks for the info, we're learning as we go ...

The F55 raw is different to F65, but hopefully not too much so. I think it's just subtleties in the way it's wrapped. The new alpha version of the Sony raw viewer can handle F65 and F55, but the current version won't see the F55 stuff. Our post guys have done a lot with F65 so they're confident they can make the workflow happen. They're going to furnish me with ProRes proxies which I think will come from Resolve. The simultaneous recording thing isn't working yet so we'll be doing it the old fashioned way. TC and reel numbers are working. Sort of. Enough that we're pretty confident an XML will work.
 
Jay Birch said:
One aspect that people seem to be overlooking is the ability to record 4K in an edit ready, 10bit/4:2:2 codec.
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Sony has made it quite clear that they want to sell millions of 4K TV's. That's hard to do if there's no content to view.

I can imagine Sony deciding to subsidize sales of pro 4K cameras to get the 4K content ball rolling. Give away razors (cameras) to sell blades (4K TV's).

Cheers.
 
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