Hans Moleman
Carbonite Member
if i'm not mistaken, your bitrate is ridiculously low. I'd also recommend sizing your frame to 720x480. unless you only want to go over the web.
Perfect Image
- Thread starter WhiteWood
- Start date
andy_starbuck
Well-known member
From Premiere Help:
"Note: When comparing CBR and VBR files of the same content and file size, you can make the following generalizations: A CBR file may play back more reliably over a wider range of systems, because a fixed data rate is less demanding on a media player and computer processor. However, a VBR file tends to have a higher image quality, because VBR tailors the amount of compression to the image content."
CBR ensures that the same amount of data is sent on playback, no matter what is in the image. So if the frame is complex, it will compress it *a lot*, blowing the quality. With VBR the data will be sent at different rates depending on the complexity of the image in the frame, but it will maintain the same image quality as it plays.
The number of passes you choose determines how much analysis the program does before it encodes the video. The more passes, the more information it has, and the better job it does of compressing the video with better quality. Of course its slower to do a 2-pass. But the extra pass will give the program more information about the video, resulting in a better quality result.
"Note: When comparing CBR and VBR files of the same content and file size, you can make the following generalizations: A CBR file may play back more reliably over a wider range of systems, because a fixed data rate is less demanding on a media player and computer processor. However, a VBR file tends to have a higher image quality, because VBR tailors the amount of compression to the image content."
CBR ensures that the same amount of data is sent on playback, no matter what is in the image. So if the frame is complex, it will compress it *a lot*, blowing the quality. With VBR the data will be sent at different rates depending on the complexity of the image in the frame, but it will maintain the same image quality as it plays.
The number of passes you choose determines how much analysis the program does before it encodes the video. The more passes, the more information it has, and the better job it does of compressing the video with better quality. Of course its slower to do a 2-pass. But the extra pass will give the program more information about the video, resulting in a better quality result.
andy_starbuck
Well-known member
Maximum Bitrate
Because you have told the encoder to play back at a constant bit rate, and then you've set the maximum for that bit rate to 256 kbps, the amount of information reaching the player never exceeds that 256 kpbs. So you want VBR, and then expirement with bumping this number up to see what quality difference it makes with respect to the output file size. You can see the effect its going to have on file size in IMG2, before you do it. Just for a sense of the setting, the least you can use on a DVD is 1.5 megabits per second.
Image Quality
This tells the encoder whether to favor smooth motion or image detail. Sometimes a video will look better with less detail in an individual image and smoother motion. Its going to change how it encodes the frames and what its using the bandwidth for.
Try a small clip -- like 30 seconds, not 12 minutes -- and run a battery of tests. Run one at 100% and one at 75% and one at 50% and one at 25% and see the difference it makes.
Because you have told the encoder to play back at a constant bit rate, and then you've set the maximum for that bit rate to 256 kbps, the amount of information reaching the player never exceeds that 256 kpbs. So you want VBR, and then expirement with bumping this number up to see what quality difference it makes with respect to the output file size. You can see the effect its going to have on file size in IMG2, before you do it. Just for a sense of the setting, the least you can use on a DVD is 1.5 megabits per second.
Image Quality
This tells the encoder whether to favor smooth motion or image detail. Sometimes a video will look better with less detail in an individual image and smoother motion. Its going to change how it encodes the frames and what its using the bandwidth for.
Try a small clip -- like 30 seconds, not 12 minutes -- and run a battery of tests. Run one at 100% and one at 75% and one at 50% and one at 25% and see the difference it makes.
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andy_starbuck
Well-known member
You may have noticed that Adobe doesn't document all the settings in their help system, and that they have warnings in their help that say they only support the media encoder presets and won't support setting changes that you make. They also refer you to the website of the encoder developer for documentation and advice on settings.
What I would suggest is finding a standard preset encoding and starting from there with a tiny sample file. And then doing expirements to find the settings that work. Move only one setting at a time so you can see the results that that setting alone produces. You could either start with a high quality DV preset, verify that you are getting a good result, and then move backwards to increase the compression and reduce the file size ... or go the other way and start with a preset that produces a good file size and then make changes to try to improve the quality.
You've got the frame rate set at 29.97 frames per second, which will give DV-quality motion. But that also means that the bandwidth isn't available for details in each frame. I would try reducing the frame rate also. At 24 fps or even 15 fps there will be a ton more bandwidth available to the encoder for image data.
So... I would suggest trying VBR, bump the Maximum Bitrate up to at least 386 kbps, reduce the frame rate to 24 or below, and move the Image Quality of 100% -- to maybe 80%. Allow it to do 2-pass encoding so you get the best results it can give. And see where that gets you.
After that, its expirementation. Changing one setting at a time and viewing the results. I would make a tiny test clip that has the worst parts from your video -- where you can easily see that the quality fell apart. And use that in your tests so that it is easier to see whether you are getting improved results.
Sorry. I know this is a tedious process. But you only have to go through it scientifically one time. Once you discover the recipe that works you'll be able to repeat the results.
What I would suggest is finding a standard preset encoding and starting from there with a tiny sample file. And then doing expirements to find the settings that work. Move only one setting at a time so you can see the results that that setting alone produces. You could either start with a high quality DV preset, verify that you are getting a good result, and then move backwards to increase the compression and reduce the file size ... or go the other way and start with a preset that produces a good file size and then make changes to try to improve the quality.
You've got the frame rate set at 29.97 frames per second, which will give DV-quality motion. But that also means that the bandwidth isn't available for details in each frame. I would try reducing the frame rate also. At 24 fps or even 15 fps there will be a ton more bandwidth available to the encoder for image data.
So... I would suggest trying VBR, bump the Maximum Bitrate up to at least 386 kbps, reduce the frame rate to 24 or below, and move the Image Quality of 100% -- to maybe 80%. Allow it to do 2-pass encoding so you get the best results it can give. And see where that gets you.
After that, its expirementation. Changing one setting at a time and viewing the results. I would make a tiny test clip that has the worst parts from your video -- where you can easily see that the quality fell apart. And use that in your tests so that it is easier to see whether you are getting improved results.
Sorry. I know this is a tedious process. But you only have to go through it scientifically one time. Once you discover the recipe that works you'll be able to repeat the results.
andy_starbuck
Well-known member
WhiteWood, try this:
Make sure all the footage in the timeline is rendered first.
(1) General Adobe Media Encoder Settings
[File]->[Export]->[Adobe Media Encoder]
Format: [Windows Media]
Preset: [WM9 NTSC 256k download]
(2) Video Settings
Video Codec: [Windows Media 9]
[ ] Allow interlaced processing <-- Leave unchecked.
Bitrate Mode: [Variable Constrained]
Frame Width: 320
Frame Height: 240
Frame Rate: 15
Pixel Aspect Ratio: [Same As Project]
The 15 fps frame rate will double the bandwidth available for image detail. You can increase this for smoother motion if you need to.
(3) Advanced Settings (under video)
Decoder Complexity: [Auto]
Keyframe Interval : [5] seconds
If you have a high action video then you can set it to 1-2 seconds. But if you have a low action video, like an interview, you can set this to 10 seconds.
Buffer Size: [x] Default
Because we've selected [Variable Constrained] we get to set an Average Bitrate and a Peak Bitrate. The Average will be used in normal scenes, and the Peak will be used in high complexity scenes, resulting in an overall more efficient file size and better quality.
How do you choose the Bitrates?
Well, the bitrate is expressed in how many pixels per bit. A higher number of pixels per bit means more image data for fewer numbers of bits transferred. This is going to effect file size and quality. When the video is changing quickly like in an action scene, you want more pixels per bit -- a higher bit rate, because you want the video to keep up with the changes. If the bit rate is too low for the change in the video, then some of the image data will just get dropped out. When the video is less complex, like a talking head, then you want a lower bit rate to reduce the file size.
200-250 pixels per bit is good for a talking head.
100-140 pixels per bit is good for action scenes.
Resolution: 320x240 = 76,800 pixels per frame.
For 130 pixels per bit, that would be 76,800/130 = 590.76
For 200 pixels per bit, that would be 76.800/200 = 384.00
So you'd set the Peak bitrate to 590.76 and the Average bitrate to 384.00.
Peak Bitrate: 590.76
Average Bitrate: 384.00
(4) Audio Settings
Audio Codec: [Windows Media Audio 9.1]
Encoding Passes: [x] Two
Bitrate Mode: [Constant] <-- don't want the audio quality changing while it plays.
(5) Basic Audio Settings (under Audio)
Audio format selection advice:
Use "stereo" if you have stereo (music) or mono if not.
48khz is DV-quality sound, 44Khz is CD-quality sound.
I'd pick 48Khz so there is less conversion for the encoder.
Set the rate at 160 kbps. You can see the effect on file size. So try 128 or 96 as well. If the audio doesn't sound good, try a different setting.
There are "CBR" and "(A/V) CBR" versions. The "(A/V)" implies that the encoding is designed for audio that will be included in a file that also includes video streams. Without the "(A/V)" means that its designed for use in a file that contains audio only.
(A/V) CBR stereo 48Khz 160.
Good luck!
Andy
Make sure all the footage in the timeline is rendered first.
(1) General Adobe Media Encoder Settings
[File]->[Export]->[Adobe Media Encoder]
Format: [Windows Media]
Preset: [WM9 NTSC 256k download]
(2) Video Settings
Video Codec: [Windows Media 9]
[ ] Allow interlaced processing <-- Leave unchecked.
Bitrate Mode: [Variable Constrained]
Frame Width: 320
Frame Height: 240
Frame Rate: 15
Pixel Aspect Ratio: [Same As Project]
The 15 fps frame rate will double the bandwidth available for image detail. You can increase this for smoother motion if you need to.
(3) Advanced Settings (under video)
Decoder Complexity: [Auto]
Keyframe Interval : [5] seconds
If you have a high action video then you can set it to 1-2 seconds. But if you have a low action video, like an interview, you can set this to 10 seconds.
Buffer Size: [x] Default
Because we've selected [Variable Constrained] we get to set an Average Bitrate and a Peak Bitrate. The Average will be used in normal scenes, and the Peak will be used in high complexity scenes, resulting in an overall more efficient file size and better quality.
How do you choose the Bitrates?
Well, the bitrate is expressed in how many pixels per bit. A higher number of pixels per bit means more image data for fewer numbers of bits transferred. This is going to effect file size and quality. When the video is changing quickly like in an action scene, you want more pixels per bit -- a higher bit rate, because you want the video to keep up with the changes. If the bit rate is too low for the change in the video, then some of the image data will just get dropped out. When the video is less complex, like a talking head, then you want a lower bit rate to reduce the file size.
200-250 pixels per bit is good for a talking head.
100-140 pixels per bit is good for action scenes.
Resolution: 320x240 = 76,800 pixels per frame.
For 130 pixels per bit, that would be 76,800/130 = 590.76
For 200 pixels per bit, that would be 76.800/200 = 384.00
So you'd set the Peak bitrate to 590.76 and the Average bitrate to 384.00.
Peak Bitrate: 590.76
Average Bitrate: 384.00
(4) Audio Settings
Audio Codec: [Windows Media Audio 9.1]
Encoding Passes: [x] Two
Bitrate Mode: [Constant] <-- don't want the audio quality changing while it plays.
(5) Basic Audio Settings (under Audio)
Audio format selection advice:
Use "stereo" if you have stereo (music) or mono if not.
48khz is DV-quality sound, 44Khz is CD-quality sound.
I'd pick 48Khz so there is less conversion for the encoder.
Set the rate at 160 kbps. You can see the effect on file size. So try 128 or 96 as well. If the audio doesn't sound good, try a different setting.
There are "CBR" and "(A/V) CBR" versions. The "(A/V)" implies that the encoding is designed for audio that will be included in a file that also includes video streams. Without the "(A/V)" means that its designed for use in a file that contains audio only.
(A/V) CBR stereo 48Khz 160.
Good luck!
Andy
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andy_starbuck
Well-known member
I'm curious also if you use all the settings I suggested, and change the size to 640x480 with square pixels whether it will look a lot better. BTW, you need to set the Peak Bitrate to 590.76 and then you set the Peak Bitrate to 384.
Can you upload .wmv files to YouTube?
Can you upload .wmv files to YouTube?
imageonepictures
Well-known member
Hey,
This is something I've been wondering about too.
What else do I need to set my Panasonic DVX-100 (original) to other than Scene File 5 24p?
I plan to shoot a feature next month.
Chris
This is something I've been wondering about too.
What else do I need to set my Panasonic DVX-100 (original) to other than Scene File 5 24p?
I plan to shoot a feature next month.
Chris
andy_starbuck
Well-known member
From the Youtube site:
We specifically recommend the MPEG4 (Divx, Xvid) format at 320x240 resolution with MP3 audio. Resizing your video to these specifications before uploading will help your clips look better on YouTube..
To get MPEG4 output from Premiere, you have to create a .mov (Quicktime) file with the h.264 compressor.
[File]->[Export]->
We specifically recommend the MPEG4 (Divx, Xvid) format at 320x240 resolution with MP3 audio. Resizing your video to these specifications before uploading will help your clips look better on YouTube..
To get MPEG4 output from Premiere, you have to create a .mov (Quicktime) file with the h.264 compressor.
[File]->[Export]->
WhiteWood
Carbonite Member
imageonepictures said:
Yo, I'm not gonna front like I know everything there is to know about the DVX and editing equiptment. Obviously I don't. But I think that I have enough knowledge about things to say that you can't shoot a FEATURE if you don't even know how to use the Scene Files....
:huh:
:huh:
andy_starbuck
Well-known member
Hey Chris.
There is a lot to learn about the DVX.
You have to take the camera out of automatic mode to really access its potential.
There is a tutorial to introduce you to the basic functions of the camera in a sticky called "Getting the Right Image", here, http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=6721
Barry Green wrote a book about the DVX that you can purchase through the DVXuser Shop, here, http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/forumdisplay.php?f=73
Which has to be the best book ever about the DVX.
Then practice using the [search] function on this site. Because just about everthing people have tried, and just about any problem you could run into has been discussed at least once on DVXuser.com.
Good luck!
There is a lot to learn about the DVX.
You have to take the camera out of automatic mode to really access its potential.
There is a tutorial to introduce you to the basic functions of the camera in a sticky called "Getting the Right Image", here, http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=6721
Barry Green wrote a book about the DVX that you can purchase through the DVXuser Shop, here, http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/forumdisplay.php?f=73
Which has to be the best book ever about the DVX.
Then practice using the [search] function on this site. Because just about everthing people have tried, and just about any problem you could run into has been discussed at least once on DVXuser.com.
Good luck!
andy_starbuck
Well-known member
Sorry. I don't have Elements.
WhiteWood
Carbonite Member
andy_starbuck said:
Okay, so here I am again. I recently shot a party for these guys. The footage came out GREAT. the editing came out GREAT. Then comes my WORST enemy, EXPORTING (dun dun duuuuuun!!!) Now, of course there's no harm done between me and the client because I export to DVD for my films with GREAT quality. It's just putting my films on the harddrive/web that murders me. Sooo.....I took this event that I shot and did EVERYTHING you asked me to do on it....
And it looks like worse crap than ever before. (Sorry)
I used the EXACT settings that you mentioned in the above quote.
I can honestly say that the 15 frames per second didn't work for me. It makes it just look slow, as if the whole video has a glitch.
Secondly, there's this odd box that frames the whole video..why?
Third, everything is out of place. My cuts, my edits, they are off by tiny numbers. The credits for instance, when the word 'THA LINEUP' shoots onto the screen, all the letters are off, when they were perfect in the edit.
And fourth, here are some options that you DIDN'T tell me about:
'Allow Interlaced Processing'-what is it and why am I not checking it?
'Decoder Complexity'
'KeyFrame Interval'
and 'Peak Video Buffer Size'
Here's the video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzQ1S7h6iMA
okay whitewood, there's a lot I think you need to just read about.
Interlaced/progressive is a big item to understand.
From your recent footage I have to suggest one thing...
TV is not real life, what looks like real life on TV was shot in very bright conditions. Our human eye can adjust to dark rooms, the camera can't. When you record in dim rooms, your camera won't produce quality pictures. So here's the deal. You've bought a multiple thousand dollar camera (one that I can't afford so I'm jealous) - so I'm gonna assume you can afford (or sacrifice lunch to buy) the following books:
Learn Lighting by Reading
Learn Audio by Reading
Learn Video by Reading
I apologize if this comes off harsh but what's another 150 bucks if you're unhappy with your 3000 investment?
Plus, rather than asking a thousand questions, one at a time, you'll have a personal library of basic knowledge.
Buy these books, learn how to fish, there are concepts in these that regardless of individual situations, your understanding them will allow your artform to grow in quality.
-good luck
Interlaced/progressive is a big item to understand.
From your recent footage I have to suggest one thing...
TV is not real life, what looks like real life on TV was shot in very bright conditions. Our human eye can adjust to dark rooms, the camera can't. When you record in dim rooms, your camera won't produce quality pictures. So here's the deal. You've bought a multiple thousand dollar camera (one that I can't afford so I'm jealous) - so I'm gonna assume you can afford (or sacrifice lunch to buy) the following books:
Learn Lighting by Reading
Learn Audio by Reading
Learn Video by Reading
I apologize if this comes off harsh but what's another 150 bucks if you're unhappy with your 3000 investment?
Plus, rather than asking a thousand questions, one at a time, you'll have a personal library of basic knowledge.
Buy these books, learn how to fish, there are concepts in these that regardless of individual situations, your understanding them will allow your artform to grow in quality.
-good luck
andy_starbuck
Well-known member
Those settings were not intended to be a "recipe" for the final result. I don't have that recipe. They were just supposed to get you in the ball park to help you find the recipe.
The idea was to give your encoder the best chance of producing higher quality individual frames than you'd been seeing. If you can get something in the close to what you want, then you can tinker with the settings using a small sample clip to "tune" it to try to get the results you want.
You'll have to read about the settings and experiment with them with your footage to find a solution that works for you with your footage and your gear.
The results you've been looking at in the other videos may not have been produced with your editing program. There are higher quality encoders available. For example, take a look at Cleaner: http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/index?id=5562182&siteID=123112 There are also streaming hardware encoding solutions available.
You might also try to contact the producers of the videos you've seen or the streaming service, and ask them what equipment, software, and settings were used. The video hosting services seem to say "we will take any format", but they don't say what will produce the best quality results.
Finally, there are web encoding services who specialize in this. Since you are getting great video quality out already, and its just a matter of encoding it for web streaming, you might want to contact one of these experts and either use their services or to hire them as consultants to advise you on which hardware/software to buy and what settings to use.
best of luck
The idea was to give your encoder the best chance of producing higher quality individual frames than you'd been seeing. If you can get something in the close to what you want, then you can tinker with the settings using a small sample clip to "tune" it to try to get the results you want.
You'll have to read about the settings and experiment with them with your footage to find a solution that works for you with your footage and your gear.
The results you've been looking at in the other videos may not have been produced with your editing program. There are higher quality encoders available. For example, take a look at Cleaner: http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/index?id=5562182&siteID=123112 There are also streaming hardware encoding solutions available.
You might also try to contact the producers of the videos you've seen or the streaming service, and ask them what equipment, software, and settings were used. The video hosting services seem to say "we will take any format", but they don't say what will produce the best quality results.
Finally, there are web encoding services who specialize in this. Since you are getting great video quality out already, and its just a matter of encoding it for web streaming, you might want to contact one of these experts and either use their services or to hire them as consultants to advise you on which hardware/software to buy and what settings to use.
best of luck
TheatreGuy
Veteran
andy_starbuck... you are amazing! I just came across this thread while searching for color correction advice. That info really wasn't found in this thread but your instructions on everything you covered are so well worded and described. I just couldn't stop reading your inputs.
Very nice. Great info.
And I have to thank you from your thread "Getting the right image."
It was one of the first threads I read when I got my dvx. I don't know if I posted in that thread to say thanks (I was very green at that point) but I want to post it now.
Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!
I don't know if you are as informed about FCP as you are Premiere, but if you are I'd like to find the threads that you may have out there covering that editing platform.
Best to you!
Ted
Very nice. Great info.
And I have to thank you from your thread "Getting the right image."
It was one of the first threads I read when I got my dvx. I don't know if I posted in that thread to say thanks (I was very green at that point) but I want to post it now.
Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!
I don't know if you are as informed about FCP as you are Premiere, but if you are I'd like to find the threads that you may have out there covering that editing platform.
Best to you!
Ted
andy_starbuck
Well-known member
Thanks! I've gotten a lot of benefit from DVXuser too!
I've worked with Premiere a bit longer than with FCP. I haven't written a lot about FCP. Still learning the workflow between the Final Cut Studio applications.
at your service,
Andy
I've worked with Premiere a bit longer than with FCP. I haven't written a lot about FCP. Still learning the workflow between the Final Cut Studio applications.
at your service,
Andy