Paying for the RED - ?

rgdfilms

rgdfilms

Wet poodle
how are you guys planning on coming up w/ 17K? I don't know about you, but I don't have that kind of money - I am thinking about mowing some lawns, robbing some banks and hopefully taking out some loans from those banks that I didn't rob... I reserved a RED but now am thinking, "How the hell are you going to come up with that kind of cash?!":furious3: I guess I have a good year to plan..
 
I'm happy to say that my wife and I are completely restructuring our lives for the betterment of our savings account and my moviemaking career.

If that all fails I will mow some lawns, rob some banks and take out some loans. :)

Just think of all the things you can give up in a year to make saving money easier. If a person were to normally drink 3 coffees from Starbucks per week and stopped doing it they could save $200-500 in a year. Take shorter and colder showers will save a few bucks. Drink more tap water and less soda. Man, the list goes on.

Start saving pennies, that's what I'm doing, but in my case it's getting rid or bigger house, buying cheaper cars, etc. It's all relative as to what we can save money on.

YOU CAN DO IT!
 
My guess: many of the people on the list will wise up and realize that unless they are actually CONSTANTLY making films or a working cameraman, there's no justification for the purchase.

Or, maybe they WON'T realize it (not before they buy, anyway), and people like me can pick up a barely-used unit downstream a little bit at enormous savings. I'd be okay with that. :)
 
Doug you may be right about part of what you're saying.

I know that I don't even have a good grasp on using the equipment that I do have and consider myself a director more than anything. The odds of me actually DP'ing one of my own features are slim to none.

I'm sure I'm not alone in this, so there is at least a little weight to your concept.

In my defense I'm really trying to get more and more involved in the developing film community here in AZ and part of my dream is to be able to help talent, young filmmakers with certain skills make their movies. I hope that one day I can offer the usage of my gear to a small group of people and lend my experience as well in order to help develop a strong community. Idealistic? Yes. But it is possible.

Hopefully, I won't be having to fire-sale my Red camera to you right after I get it. :)
 
I plan to stop drinking imported beer for two whole weekends. That should cover the balance, a couple of Red Drives, taxes, duty and brokerage fees.

Sacrifices just have to be made!

Seriously though, if you didn't have the balance to begin with and really don't want to step out of line, why don't you start a Red Indie Filmmakers Co-op and get twenty more people to kick in a grand each?
 
I like what you're saying, insanityfw, but it doesn't sound to me like you need RED to do it. I think plenty of young filmmakers would be absolutely thrilled just to shoot something on an HVX or Z1U even.
 
dougspice said:
I like what you're saying, insanityfw, but it doesn't sound to me like you need RED to do it. I think plenty of young filmmakers would be absolutely thrilled just to shoot something on an HVX or Z1U even.
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I completely agree with you Doug, but I am also serving my own selfish reasons, so i didn't meant to come off as a benefactor. :)

I love toys even if I'm not the best at using them and if I have the money nobody gets hurt. :)
 
im not sure why (other than blaine's explanation) you would want to spend that much on a camera if you are not using it for business. if you want to make films with its huge image. cool. but factor the cost into your budget first. for production and post. at least start a biz so all the money you drop is a tax deduction.
 
I don't get taxes taken out of my checks since I am freelance - i don't have a legit registered business name either - I was always under the impression that every dollar I spent on equipment that made me money was a tax write off ..
 
insanityfw, you and I share the same dream but in different states, I feel that way about Las Vegas, there's hardly a filmmaking community here compared to other places. Sure, lots of TV shows are set here, but that doesn't mean they are here.
 
rgdfilms said:
I don't get taxes taken out of my checks since I am freelance - i don't have a legit registered business name either - I was always under the impression that every dollar I spent on equipment that made me money was a tax write off ..
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ya that is kind of what i meant.. at least 'use' it for biz. i can't imagine why hobbists would want to splash out on it.

so if you are using it for biz what will you be using the 4k image for? do you have the post gear to deal with that size image? and how do you think it would help your biz to have one? i know it shoots other formats.. but so do other cameras that cost less.

i think the cam so far is quite amazing.. but personally i wouldn't need it at this stage and wouldn't consider it a good investment at this time. maybe if i were producing a feature film..
 
Jack_Felis said:
insanityfw, you and I share the same dream but in different states, I feel that way about Las Vegas, there's hardly a filmmaking community here compared to other places. Sure, lots of TV shows are set here, but that doesn't mean they are here.
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Jack. You just have to keep plugging away. Get as many people together as you can and keep doing projects and sharing information and it can grow.

I'm working with Jae Staats down here in Phx as much as possible and he just keeps hammering away trying to come up with new ways to get people involved down here. RIght now he's got a marketing firm that's putting on an Urban Festival and they're working with him on doing a 48 Hour film challenge based on doing a 30second commercial. This is his second festival this year...so that kind of thing helps bind people together.

Good luck. keep in touch and we can work on some sort of Southwest Film Syndicate. :)
 
KOVAROVA said:
...i can't imagine why hobbists would want to splash out on it...
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A "hobby", which is really doing what you have an absolute passion for outside of your day to day activities, like building an empire founded on sunglasses, is why Red is coming into existance. Have you seen Jim's camera collection?

Now Jim's hobby is resulting in Red One and also his new main day to day! Ya' gotta love that.

I can totally imagine why hobbyists spend fortunes all the time on their passions. It AIN'T about the money!
 
Well said Craig, couldn't have put it better myself.

I am in the process of converting my love of films into making them. Why not start with the best tools possible? :)
 
I think one of the biggest reasons for preordering a Red One camera is because people just don't know if A. The camera will remain at such a great price B. Remain widely available once all reservations have been complete.

Whilst it's a nice idea to think that once it has established it's first batch it will be available in the local highstreet a few months down the line, I very much doubt this will be the case. You might very well have to wait some time afterwards before another batch load is produced.

If this is the case then it bodes well for anyone who has bought one in the first sitting... first of all it means there is a large time whereby the Red is unavailable to some people which in turn means that your camera has an added value if you need to sell it, or (and this is many peoples justification for buying a Red One) you intend to rent the camera.

Personally I cannot justify buying the camera purely for myself as a hobby. But getting into the film industry is something that I have aspired too for many years. For me I either buy a HVX200 or I save double the money and buy a Red One, I live in the UK and the HVX is about £4,500 typically, with the dollar rate as it is going the Red One costs about £9,000. I simply justify saving that money because I'd be getting something which is more than twice as good as I what I was originally intending to purchase. Problem is it will take me twice as long to get it lol! (But then there is a bout a year to go yet!)

I also like the idea of turning up to Film School with a camera that is better than anything they typically have available to students lol!
 
Homersapien said:
I also like the idea of turning up to Film School with a camera that is better than anything they typically have available to students lol!
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Haha, I hear you :) Whilst my film school has been great, they are definitely slow to adopt new technology. I shot my first short on the Arri SRII film camera (Super16) and afterwards vowed never to touch film again! Too costly, too cumbersome and too difficult to create special effects with. You are at the mercy of telecine and a host of other issues that can potentially compromise the quality of the original negative (which being 16mm isn't huge to begin with).

I shot my thesis film with the JVC GY-HD101E and had to hire that separately because the school has no HD technology at all (DV only as I write this). Now the 720p footage in 4:2:0 MPEG2 format still has problems (the GOP between keyframes is the biggest IMHO) but it was far cheaper and easier workflow wise than the Super16 stuff ever was. Special effects with 1280x720p footage (square pixels) are FAR easier to implement and the image quality when graded is more than adequate for converting to DVD. In fact I elected to crop to a 2.35:1 ratio and combined with a short depth of field the footage looks almost good enough to fool people into thinking it was shot 35mm :)

With something like Red available film schools will have to adapt to the marketplace or risk becoming out of date very quickly. When a reasonably well heeled student is able to arrive with superior tech to the school you KNOW it's time to re-examine your school's workflow. Having said all that, the tech alone is NOT going to make you a good filmmaker. If the story sucks then no amount of technical proficiency is going to help. Polished turd analogy and all that....

To wrap up and keep this post on topic, perhaps I should rent out my Red to my film school once I get it?! Could be a nice side earner aside from normal rental and using it on my own productions.
 
Ways to pay for your RED camera?

Here's an abbreviated list of the cine-style and ENG-style genres of production I'll be using my RED camera for:

- Feature films (4k or 2k)
- Indie films (2k or 1080p)
- HDTV programs and stock footage in the following genres: alternative sports, adventure travel, music, reality, documentaries, cultures, cuisine, mainstream travel, military, nature, events, mainstream sports (1080p or 720p)
- Commercials (2k, 1080p, or 720p)
- Infomercials (2k, 1080p, or 720p)
- Business videos (1080p or 720p)
- News b-roll (1080i for news, and 1080p for promos)
- POV deck (1080p or 720p, with a cigar cam)
- POV vehicle mount camera (2k, 1080p, or 720p)
- In-water camera with a custom housing (2k, 1080p, or 720p)
- Aerial hand held and aircraft mounted (2k, 1080p, or 720p)
- Teaching tools for workshops (selected formats)
- Events (1080p, 1080i, 720p)
- Film festival demonstrations (selected formats)
- Broadcast teases and promos (1080p and 720p)
- Public service announcement (1080p and 720p)

Before I even receive my RED camera I’ll have a series of projects for my RED camera bid out and lined up like ducks in a row. I anticipate recovering my outlay for my RED camera on the very first project I do with the camera.

Enterprising and perceptive people who are budget-challenged will analyze the broad revenue-generating potential of the RED camera, buy a basic RED system, put it to work in every genre possible, rent everything beyond the basic camera system on a per-project basis, eventually aggregate enough capital to purchase their regularly-used accessories, and then specialize into the genre of production that is their greatest interest.

Why would anyone view paying for their RED camera as a long-term situation? Even business media projects bid out for between $2.5k and $3.5k per finished minute, depending on "bells & whistles" included. If you hold costs down, a profit margin of at least 55% to 65% is reasonable. Business media projects are routinely closed with contracts that require 50% down on signing, and the remaining 50% due on delivery. If you close a $50k USD in business media projects, and get 50% down, that’s $25k – which nearly pays off an economy RED package. 65% profit margin (average profit) on those projects should leave you with around $32,500 in profit – on your first project. Bottom line: it can only take one decent sized business media project to pay for your entire RED camera system, and you can buy the camera using the 50% down payment from your client. Then simply rent the accessories you need for the project.

Freelance shooting? It won't take very many freelance days with the camera to pay it off.

You should be able to rent out your RED camera package to pro-level shooters farther down the reservation list that need RED for projects while they are waiting for theirs. It wouldn’t take many days of that to pay off your RED.

Reasons to opt for a RED camera over a $5k-10K 1/3" camera? Lets' see: 35mm depth of field, use of true professional lenses (2/3", S16, 35mm, S35), a broad range of resolutions that give you the bidding ability and freelance ability to generate more revenue (720p, 1080i, 1080p, 2k, 4k, 2540p), upward mobility without having to buy a new $5k-10K camera every other year as your business and knowledge grows, ability to do either cine-style or ENG-style projects with the same camera (thus potentially generate more income), and many more reasons. I just don’t see the need to spend a total of $25k over the next 5 years on a succession of 1/3” cameras, when I can spend the same amount now and get a camera that has already has the growth room I’ll need looking forward.

I think wisdom dictates that if you’re serious about being a professional in the motion media business, that you be commensurately serious about the technology, upward mobility, and revenue generating potential of your camera system. I’m not a beginner. I’m an Emmy-winning veteran of around 800 national TV programs and countless business media projects. If I was just starting out in the business, I have no doubt that I’d do what I outlined above to fast track my growth curve in the motion media business.

Gibby
RED #8
www.cut4.tv
www.4umat.com
 
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