John Caballero
Veteran
Tilits were also showing "mud" on daylight footage from commanderspike.
Yep. Maybe a combination of the two.
Panning 'mud', reasons why and firmware update
- Thread starter commanderspike
- Start date
Tilits were also showing "mud" on daylight footage from commanderspike.
Yep. Maybe a combination of the two.
OK cool then.
He's making a point in that tilt to do so slowly though. It's about exactly following the 7 second rule and the clip is titled "Cinematic Slow Pan - No Mud". So again - don't know how we can necessarily draw the conclusion that night time pans/tilts aren't an issue. You have to only change 1 thing to know what's causing the fix. So you have to test pan to pan, tilt to tilt, and same speed to same speed. Barry Green and others have already proffered that if you follow the cinemetic rule you don't get mud - could be a result of that. Maybe not. If I missed a cinematic speed tilt that had mud - sorry.
He's making a point in that tilt to do so slowly though. It's about exactly following the 7 second rule and the clip is titled "Cinematic Slow Pan - No Mud". So again - don't know how we can necessarily draw the conclusion that night time pans/tilts aren't an issue. You have to only change 1 thing to know what's causing the fix. So you have to test pan to pan, tilt to tilt, and same speed to same speed. Barry Green and others have already proffered that if you follow the cinemetic rule you don't get mud - could be a result of that. Maybe not. If I missed a cinematic speed tilt that had mud - sorry.
Nitsuj
Well-known member
Agree.
The pan I had seen with the old guy (that guy can move) I would still consider a nasty pan. Get this thing on a fluid head and do a nice controlled pan. Also I would really think of 1080p as more of a cinematic mode (steady control and planned shots) and the 720p would be for all your doc style modes (run-n-gun, unplanned shots). That's just imo. I still think the VBR drops down low with fast movements so that needs to be kept in mind.
Boz
Well-known member
Warning: if you are sensitive to stress caused by mud, look away now!! For all it's plus points above even a 90 year old guy can outrun the GH1
http://www.vimeo.com/5072139
Wow, that truly is awful. Again not a 'whip-pan' by any means. Just sad and pathetic.
Speaking of sad and pathetic, there's this:
http://provideocoalition.com/index....1_camera_surprising_responses_from_panasonic/
Another chance for Panasonic to fess up to some of the problems with the GH1, and they totally drop the ball with canned, dry answers. Way to go Panny!
I know 60p is zero skew and 1080 is virtually no skew
I don't know about the 720 60p mud though - seems like it was slightly less due to the codec / processor changing a smaller image?
The 30p MJPEG was no or virtually no mud if I'm keeping it all straight.
I don't know about the 720 60p mud though - seems like it was slightly less due to the codec / processor changing a smaller image?
The 30p MJPEG was no or virtually no mud if I'm keeping it all straight.
the problem is not a panning or a tilt, or a more than 6 secons paning, or a nervous guy, or more or less green...
the problem is the encoder (bitrate/lack of B frames) is carefully ajusted by panasonic to be "on the border", and when doing a paning with a lot of image detail the camera crosses the border and falls...
you can do mud-free pannings as long as the scene don't have too much detail.
also, if you are luck and get a I-Frame in the middle of your paning the mud can be reduced a lot, just like a I-frame lottery
the problem is the encoder (bitrate/lack of B frames) is carefully ajusted by panasonic to be "on the border", and when doing a paning with a lot of image detail the camera crosses the border and falls...
you can do mud-free pannings as long as the scene don't have too much detail.
also, if you are luck and get a I-Frame in the middle of your paning the mud can be reduced a lot, just like a I-frame lottery
stephenvv
Well-known member
Warning: if you are sensitive to stress caused by mud, look away now!! For all it's plus points above even a 90 year old guy can outrun the GH1
http://www.vimeo.com/5072139
Pulldown removed this time. Cheers to Boz for fixing my previous clip. Tardy on my part... was in a rush that day.
EDIT: the mud isn't as visible on Vimeo as it is from the full HD Quicktime on my Mac... it is a much more minor occurrence here, which goes to show that certain sources can hide the mud effect, especially the PS3, playback on a quality plasma or viewing it small on Vimeo.
Please keep posting clips like these that make the camera look bad. I want to buy one this week bad and maybe you can convince someone to sell me their order.
rogar-Love(DBG):
We know. no one is saying it's not the codec. But if you pan slower, the codec has more time to process the detail changes. It definitely is a mix of detail vs. speed or you wouldn't get detail when still.
The point about pan, tilt, this background, that background etc. Was that you can't compare apples and oranges and say one solves the problem and one causes it. You have to compare panning along the same background at different speeds or differet backgrounds at the same speeds.
You can't point the camera at tons of far off leaves and pan fast then go into a grocery store at night and tilt or pan slow and say one or the other solves the problem because you've changed top much.
Pan the distant mountains ot one speed, pan the grocery store at night at the same speed - that tells you something.
Pan the camera across the distant mountains at different speeds. That tells you something.
Pan the camera across the grocery store at night at different speeds. That tells you something.
Pan the camera across the detailed mountains fast, then the grocery store at night slow and you've changed too much to isolate what's helping or hurting.
Yes that's my point about lots of little leaves and trees on a mountan vs. shelves and dark background witha few light.
BUT if you pan the mountains slow enough the codec can likely handle it no?
Also there are more vertical lines than horizontal lines, therefore .... pan = more information to process than a tilt.
You are right it's all abou the codecs ability to handle detail. But panning slower gives it time to process. Tilting is less detail to process at a given speed than panning. Maybe too little a difference to matter. But we don't know yet.
John Caballero
Veteran
The fact is that if the old man pan was a narrative film you would do a few takes. If you knew the pan wasn't working what you would do is frame him running from different angles and move the action along without panning. Wide angle like he starts, front angle medium shot, low angle and whatever to keep the action moving whithout neccesarily panning. In addition I would like to know what happens if you move the camera along while you pan instead of living it static and panning. Also a crane and pan situation. This pan thing is a very minor glitch in an otherwise very nice and sharp and very well colored image from the GH1. If you are just a little bit creative in your shots you will do very well with it. There is no doubt about it. I was watching the Vimeo links squig posted for the 5D and there is a lot of nasty jello on many of them. Despite that people are touting them as great. Go figure.
Wow, that truly is awful. Again not a 'whip-pan' by any means. Just sad and pathetic.
Speaking of sad and pathetic, there's this:
http://provideocoalition.com/index....1_camera_surprising_responses_from_panasonic/
Another chance for Panasonic to fess up to some of the problems with the GH1, and they totally drop the ball with canned, dry answers. Way to go Panny!
sure this is sad and pathetic, mr tepper has no idea what he is talking about.
he said the GH1 is wasting a lot of bandwidth storing 24p over 60i and 25p over 50i, cause "The maximum available 17 megabits per second is divided up among 59.94 fields, instead of only 23.976 progressive frames" , this is ridiculous , over 60i the GH1 stores 60 half frames, 12 of them repeated, the repeated frames are managed by h.264 coded with a few bytes, the real waste of bandwidth is ridiculous.
Also, he complains about the 4:2:0 encoder , all cams in this price range are 4:2:0.
Please correct me if I am mistaking, but based on how the sampling works the only time 4:2:2 would give you an advantage is on an interlaced camera.
Most cameras today are progressive, hence 4:2:0... Unless of course you are getting 10 bits out of 4:2:2, but that's not always the case.
Most cameras today are progressive, hence 4:2:0... Unless of course you are getting 10 bits out of 4:2:2, but that's not always the case.
slimjimmed
Well-known member
What's up with vimeo? Anyone else having issues?
Dalton Boettcher
Active member
Yes.
John Caballero
Veteran
Originally Posted by Jim Klatt
What's up with vimeo? Anyone else having issues?
Is in meltdown mode. Too much "mud" perhaps?
slimjimmed
Well-known member
Unpredictable movement is the nature of doc work for me. Having an image breakdown like that, unless you do very slow, controlled pans would make it impossible.
True Jim. This appears to not be the case in 720 30p MJPEG on the camera though.
yup "Jello" has become a buzz word for the modern HD video generation( "yo does your vid have jello... " ) and in some circles is sort of accepted . "Mud" on the other hand hasn't yet earned anything other then its meaning for ugly smears of a breaking codec. Maybe in a year we will talk with the same regard about "Mud".
I hope not