Panning 'mud', reasons why and firmware update

stephenvv said:
Again, I never said fast pans were a problem - but medium speed pans (like the footage CS posted) are the problem. But when you do fast or whip pans, you usually shoot slower shutter speed/angle. Isaac - yeah, there was some strobing issues but those IMO are caused by sitting to close and your eyes following the background (which does often strobe in films) and not the subject.
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Isaac? :)
 
He problably needs a smoother tripod head too. You can't jerk the motion too much. Like I said before, you really need to know how to handle this cams. By example, when you are hand holding one of them you have to sort have to make the camera "float" as if suspended in the air to avoid the jello, like what the steadicam would do, the slightlest tilt back and forth will ruin the shot. I can't wait to get one and start working on how to handle this little beast.
 
But from what we've seen jello is no issue at all in 720 and so minor it's really not an issue in 1080 you can only get it by panning like a mad man.

The only thing is this mud thing, IMHO.
 
So I know what a whip pan is but is there an actual point that a fast pan is no longer just a fast pan, and becomes a whip pan?

EDIT: People are posting wayyy too fast on this thread. Haha. At this rate it will be twice this long in a week.
 
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There could be some jello there at 1080 but I think is very manageable. BTW: if you want to see some serious whip pans and nasty rolling shutter image bending check out the series Southland on NBC or Hulu. At least in the first few episodes that I watched. It is shot with the Red One no less. It looks a little pasticky to me also. Did the nasty rolling shutter prevent them from doing the wacky whip pans? Nope. I think they enjoy making the images look all bent up. I guess is an artistic choice. Those who like to analyze frame by frame wll have a ball with this one.
 
Huh. See here's a good example of content and everything else working. I've been watching Southland since day one on my 1080 46" and never noticed skew.
 
I think the 1080 footage that I have seen looks very... pixelated. When you pause it the greens look horrible and even faces look broken up by blocky pixel-ish looking things. Do you know what I mean? This is when the camera is locked down and the subject is barely moving. The 720 looks delicious to me, to the point that it looks higher resolution than the 1080 does. So I think I will be shooting in 720. One question. How do you convert from 60p to 24p and how nice or bad does it look?

EDIT: How do pans hold up in 60p?
 
Jack Daniel Stanley said:
Huh. See here's a good example of content and everything else working. I've been watching Southland since day one on my 1080 46" and never noticed skew.
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And there it is. If you didn't notice it...I'm sure millions of other viewers didn't either. I think Kholi is right....we are all nothing but measurebaters. I, like a lot of other folks, really never had a problem with rolling shutter issues until some others started making a big stink about it. Now I have to reprogram my viewing brain so that I don't see it.
 
Another thought:

Are pans in 720 okay on the GH1? I can use my HF10 for pans that don't work with the GH1. The deeper DOF might help as well if I am moving the camera around. The only thing I am concerned about is the lowlight. My upcoming short has a lot of night shots. And a lot of it is outdoors.
 
Ian-T said:
I, like a lot of other folks, really never had a problem with rolling shutter issues until some others started making a big stink about it. Now I have to reprogram my viewing brain so that I don't see it.
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Lol, I have the same problem, watching a series I know was shot digital, and sometimes when fast motion is involved instead of paying attention to the plot I try to spot rolling shutter issues...
Anyway not to go off topic, I really want to buy this camera because of the form factor. As I already said, even without taking into account the double price of the 5D, I want a smaller and lighter camera. My only hope is still the Samsung NX.
And also, the full frame sensor is way too large for me. I want a sensor of APSC size maximum...
 
And there it is. If you didn't notice it...
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Yeah, it is there but it works with the flow of the visuals. You dont even notice it unless you know that the Red One does that and therefore you look for it and most importantly you know what it really is. 99.9% of the viewing public won't know or won't give a crap about those seconds in the film.
 
I love how those who can see this OBVIOUS problem are called 'measurebators': http://www.vimeo.com/5062764 I'm sure even most untrained eye can spot that. Or how about the the very end of Kholi's Thrifty video (I've truncated it here for easy viewing - last shot): http://www.vimeo.com/5070498 Are people really going to tell me most people won't see this stuff? I don't need to frame by frame to see these problems. The only time I stop a video is if I see something weird in motion - then I go back to see what was going on. It wouldn't be much of a problem if it wasn't so obvious in motion.

Others have brought up the fact that both Canon and Pentax have much stronger bitrates in their codecs to make up for the lack of B-frames..... what's Panasonic's excuse? It saddens me that Panasonic said 'good enough' and shipped the GH1 out the door.

So far there are only 3 real workarounds:

1. Cut around the problem. If there's mud, cut it out.

2. Carefully limit camera motion when shooting 24P.

3. Shoot 60P (or 30P) and either do a drop frame trick or optical retiming to get it to 24P (render intensive, doesn't always work).

I REALLY wish Panny would at least give us 720-24P MJPEG. I'd order one tomorrow.
 
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I don't think the punters will notice the 720 mud but the 1080 mud is really unacceptable. Personally I don't care if anyone else sees it, I see it and I'm not buying it unless panasonic fixes it because as far as I'm concerned it's broken. I'd rather use a D90. I hope they fix the GH1 it has so much potential.
 
Most basic rule: don't whip pan. As simple as that. Thats the lesson, again, with that piece. Now, we want to see a deliberate pan with a nice smooth head. Don't jerk it. Just let it roll nice and even, like it should be with a normal pan. Whip pans have an artistic(?) place but unfortunately those that want to do it in a lot of their shots won't be able to do them with the GH1.

Again, for those who want to witness nasty rolling shutter whip panning watch Southland on NBC or Hulu. You'll love checking it frame by frame.

I'd rather use a D90.
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LOL.
 
John, the video that CS posted hardly qualifies as a "whip pan". I classify it as a moderate quick correction that you see in lots of narrative handheld shots. Check out "Mr & Mrs Smith" that movie is full of 'em! :)

BTW, I found a brilliant post from Stu Maschwitz as to why one doesn't want to lean on the the 60/30 to 24P crutch to much:
http://rebelsguide.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=26384#26384
 
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Here's something interesting. I finally got around to watching raw footage on a playstation on a 1080P television. It looked fantastic. I know that my LCD has some built in sharpening, even when I dial it all the way down it's doing some tweaking to images. I've looked at stuff on two different monitors and noticed that LCD's end up skewing the image. Not saying there's no mud, but on a 1080P screen playing out from PS3 everything looked right, pulldown was correctly removed and the picture looked great. I'm beginning to think that they built this camera around the consumers hooking up cameras to their HDTVs' and Panasonic Vieras instead of the discerning pixelpeeping indie filmmaking crowd.
 
John, the video that CS posted hardly qualifies as a "whip pan".
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He just jerked it, thats all. And we know you can't be done for sure.

I'm beginning to think that they built this camera around the consumers hooking up cameras to their HDTVs' and Panasonic Vieras instead of the discerning pixelpeeing indie filmmaking crowd.
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Really? That is EXACTLY what they did. The masses won't know what to make of all that "mud" hitting them from their huge t.v. screens! There's gonna be a lot of messed up living rooms out there.
 
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John Caballero said:
He just jerked it, thats all. And we know you can't be done for sure.
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http://vimeo.com/1124192


....Really? That is EXACTLY what they did. The masses won't know what to make of all that "mud" hitting them from their huge t.v. screens! There's gonna be a lot of messed up living rooms out there.
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I think what Isaac is saying is that it looked good under the viewing circumstances he described.
 
Wow. I just got out of the emergency room after being pretty much dead for a few days and this thread is STILL ongoing?

Give it a rest already.

All this stress over an inanimate object is ridiculous.
 
I think what Isaac is saying is that it looked good under the viewing circumstances he described.
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I know. And we are going to benefit from this new camera even though Panasonic made it for consumers.

I just got out of the emergency room after being pretty much dead for a few days
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What happened to you? You know that I thought today something may have happened to Kholi because he hasn't been around for a while. You OK? You had the "flu"?
 
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