Panasonic Varicam 35 & Varicam HS

All I can say about pricing is -- $60k sounds way too high in today's market, and I think they probably know that, and I'm sure they were told that many times. But think back on the HVX200 -- they initially told us it would be "under $10,000"; when it actually came out it was $5,995.

So seeing as these new VariCams aren't due to be out to the market until Fall (maybe September? October? November?) and that real pricing will be announced then, I wouldn't consider the $60k too seriously. I would assume it's more of a placeholder. Now, it could indeed come in at $59,995 for all I know... but it might not, if the HVX200 is any indicator. I guess we'll see.
 
Run&Gun said:
My biggest concern with the current specs is the lack of Global Shutter and flash banding. The sales/exec type tried to play it down, but the engineer was more forthright and seemed to acknowledged that in it's current design, there would be flash banding because it's a rolling shutter...........I would gladly trade a little sensitivity to not have flash banding or the possibility of skew. Whether this changes or not on the final version, who know…
Click to expand...
Highly unlikely to change substantially between now and the final design - it would mean a completely new design of sensor and I don't see that happening.

The comments about global shutter coming at the cost of some sensitivity and DR are quite true (the means of achieving it take up some space on each photosite, so a little less light gathering ability) - but the bigger the photosites, the less the sacrifice. With an s35 4096x2160 sensor I tend to agree with you that it is indeed a price worth paying for most people. For most people, rolling shutter may be far from the end of the world - but on a $60,000 camera......?
And the price… It's all speculation. Panasonic said final pricing has not been set.
Click to expand...
I don't know what to say to that. The Varicam has been touted for the best part of a year with a drip, drip of information readying for a NAB launch. Formal press releases are issued giving a guide to prices - then we're told that may not be so after all. Or by "final pricing has not been set", do they mean it could be $59,900, or $59,500, or $59,250, or.......?

On the plus side, one thing that may be worth pointing out is that "about $60,000" does seem to include the EVF.
 
harddrive said:
Highly unlikely to change substantially between now and the final design - it would mean a completely new design of sensor and I don't see that happening.

The comments about global shutter coming at the cost of some sensitivity and DR are quite true (the means of achieving it take up some space on each photosite, so a little less light gathering ability) - but the bigger the photosites, the less the sacrifice. With an s35 4096x2160 sensor I tend to agree with you that it is indeed a price worth paying for most people. For most people, rolling shutter may be far from the end of the world - but on a $60,000 camera......?

I don't know what to say to that. The Varicam has been touted for the best part of a year with a drip, drip of information readying for a NAB launch. Formal press releases are issued giving a guide to prices - then we're told that may not be so after all. Or by "final pricing has not been set", do they mean it could be $59,900, or $59,500, or $59,250, or.......?

On the plus side, one thing that may be worth pointing out is that "about $60,000" does seem to include the EVF.
Click to expand...

I should clarify, I did not speak directly to Panasonic on the price. I was given that info by my sales rep about five minutes before I spoke to Panasonic, and they had had a meeting with them earlier that day.

If this was a $15K-$20K camera, then yes, maybe lack of a global shutter could be understood, but I whole heartedly agree with you, for (possibly)$60K it's inexcusable and as much as I like Panasonic, I feel it's very shortsighted and think that they underestimated it's necessity. They should know from the previous incarnations of the VarCam's that they aren't used in 100% controlled environments all of the time where you can just not shoot in a situation that would induce flash banding(hell, mine are used for ENG over half of the time).

Yeah, hopefully that GORGEOUS VF is included in the price. Who else here remembers the days when the VF was included with the body…?
 
Run&Gun said:
Who else here remembers the days when the VF was included with the body…?
Click to expand...

Me for one! And yes it's a very good point, it's not just the VF that needs budgeting for these days - you take an F5 and think right, £10,000, OK that's not too bad......but wait a minute! VF £3k, battery rig £2k, media £3k, support system £500, replacement VF cable (!!!) £400...before you know it you're bill is now doubled! And thats' without tripod and lenses.
It will be interesting to see final prices from Panny...and even more interesting to see it does actually hit the shelves before 2015!
Steve
 
With today's market, I would think the camera should sell and would sell a lot for $30-35,000........$60K or anywhere near that would be a miss-fire....I also thought the Amira would do well at that price range but it has turned out to be much higher......we'll see

Jim Martin
Filmtools.com
 
Yeah Steve, the (relatively) low cost of some of these bodies(only) completely misleads a lot of people, including producers who want low rates because the "camera only costs $14K, etc.". A friend just had to buy(switch to) an F5 from a C300. The $19K(US) package ended up costing him just over $30K in the end. And it's not like he is new to the game and having to buy things like stix or batts or audio… He's one of the few guys in town that has more toys than me.

And concerning the Amira, Jim… I have been hearing that the interest has been waning on it. I played with it at NAB very briefly and I know it will be a nice camera, BUT in my opinion, it is about two years too late to the party. Well, MAYBE if it had been on the street in the beginning of '13 it would have made some big in-roads, but... I think in 2012, owner/operators would have snatched up the Amira as fast as Arri could have cranked them out, but I think it's gonna be a rental house item, now.

Just like I don't see many people like me, who already own three Vari's, buying the new one at the supposed price point with it's current shortcomings. But they may not care about people like me anymore, who straddle the line, they may just be going for strictly high-end productions that are currently occupied by Alexa and the like.
 
The Alexa/Amira/Dragon/F65 all have rolling shutters, only the F65 has a mechanical shutter to compensate. All of those camera makers made the decision to have a rolling shutter for the same reason Panasonic did: more dynamic range/sensitivity. A non-CCD global shutter is still a bit rare, and I can only think of the F55 that has it asides from the BM4K (which isn't as sensitive/less DR). So a global shutter is hardly the standard yet, not that it isn't great.
 
Saw the mockup today, this thing looks very ready to shoot, great form factor. I just can´t believe it will be more then 25K. The URSA is real and will change the game soon, at least for many owner operators IMHO. The Pana rep told me the final launch will be at IBC this week, so the guessing game will be over soon at last;)

EDIT: I´m aware how much an "old" Varicam did cost or what you'll have to spend for a F55 (or F65) or Alexa/Amira. And yeah, this might just become a rental item like the others and Pana might also come out with/announce an AF200 at IBC to cater to the "lower end" market. But still, the features to diversify camera line-ups have become less and less.
And products like the CD Q7 bridge some gaps already...
 
Last edited:
I think the truth is that the shelf life of any camera has been sincerely reduced. This means that companies have to recoup their cost far more quickly, the high initial entry price is a reflection of that. I am sure that they calculated for high end productions/rental houses based on reputation of the old varicam. Once that initial market is exhausted, either the camera will have caught on, or die a quick life. They are never going to sell this camera to every Joe and they probably feel it would only be a race to the bottom anyhow.
 
yoclay said:
Once that initial market is exhausted, either the camera will have caught on, or die a quick life. They are never going to sell this camera to every Joe and they probably feel it would only be a race to the bottom anyhow.
Click to expand...
I don´t believe a 25000$ cam is for "every Joe" ;) But I get your point.
Still, lower camera prices also influence the rental market. If you know you`ll rent for your production, you may still end up deciding between an URSA and a Varicam4K.
And if you position the Varicam4K against Alexa, Red or F65 your trying to move (again) into a market, with established workflows and great demands and expectations.
Someone used to shooting an Alexa won´t mind that much about a new player in the game.
But Owner/operators are IMHO much more open when it comes to trying sth new and getting ahead of competition.
So the owner/operator market might be more attractive these days, more volume, more service, more retail, more brand recognition...
 
yoclay said:
I think the truth is that the shelf life of any camera has been sincerely reduced. This means that companies have to recoup their cost far more quickly, the high initial entry price is a reflection of that. I am sure that they calculated for high end productions/rental houses based on reputation of the old varicam. Once that initial market is exhausted, either the camera will have caught on, or die a quick life. They are never going to sell this camera to every Joe and they probably feel it would only be a race to the bottom anyhow.
Click to expand...


You could argue that the 'old VariCam' was/is an owner/operator camera as much as a rental item. I own three, a tape and two P2's, all purchased new. I used to shoot with other guys that owned several apiece, as well. On guy had two tapes, another had at least two if not three tapes, then I believe at least three P2's. And I can think of several others who owned multiple copies and single cam owner/ops, as well. And that's just in a small circle of guys I know.

I've always liked the VariCam line(especially the 2700), but I think at the rumored price point of around $60k, it's just too much at this point in time. $40k is more acceptable(but still higher than I'd like to see with what's available out there already, meaning the F55), but I'd have to be impressed by some of the things that haven't been really talked about, yet, and some that have, too.
 
Run&Gun said:
I've always liked the VariCam line(especially the 2700), but I think at the rumored price point of around $60k, it's just too much at this point in time. $40k is more acceptable(but still higher than I'd like to see..........
Click to expand...
But in the days of the original Varicam the "look" was far more a function of the camera make and model than it is now. That was even down to the Varicam being 720p, Sony equivalents being 1080i, let alone hardware being the determining factor more than nowadays. Add to that differing off-the-shelf lineups and Sony cameras got the reputation for being "vivid", Panasonic (and especially the Varicam) more subdued - dare I say more "film-like"......? You chose the camera to suit the programme.

Now, it's a different world. We're looking at multi-format cameras, and especially with 1080p (let alone 4k) both 1080i and 720p are becoming less and less relevant. The "look" is now largely down to lineup - far, far less intrinsic to the camera hardware. That becomes even more the case when we talk about RAW. The "look" of the image is then mainly down to software.

So if you liked the old "Varicam look" (which I'd tend to agree with personally) then there is little need to actually now get a camera with "Varicam" on the side of it. You buy what works for you in other fundamental ways - and get the menu settings which give you the desired look.

And as said before, whilst I'm sure this camera will give good results, then in certain intrinsic ways it can't be as good as an F55. No global shutter. No compressed RAW support, RAW only possible via a third party at all. Will it have the capability to be used live into an OB truck? If not, that's another negative against the F55. None of that would matter if it's cheaper than an F55, even maybe the same price...... but it's not. (Or are we really in for a huge shock at IBC? Will it come out at $20,000, not $60,000?)

And it's late into the market. Given the widespread acceptance of Red, Arri and Sony large sensor top end cameras - each with it's own favoured niche - any newcomer is going to have to offer something special to gain acceptance. And I don't see much that the new Varicam does bring to the table that isn't there already. Too many people are using too many similar cameras to want to think about a different system. Basically Panasonic got their strategy wrong by ignoring large sensor and 4k for too long. Hats off to them for admitting their mistake and trying to put it right, but unless the announced price is absolutely slashed - like $30,000 at most - I don't see more than a handful getting sold.
 
Run&Gun said:
You could argue that the 'old VariCam' was/is an owner/operator camera as much as a rental item. I own three, a tape and two P2's, all purchased new. I used to shoot with other guys that owned several apiece, as well. On guy had two tapes, another had at least two if not three tapes, then I believe at least three P2's. And I can think of several others who owned multiple copies and single cam owner/ops, as well. And that's just in a small circle of guys I know.

I've always liked the VariCam line(especially the 2700), but I think at the rumored price point of around $60k, it's just too much at this point in time. $40k is more acceptable(but still higher than I'd like to see with what's available out there already, meaning the F55), but I'd have to be impressed by some of the things that haven't been really talked about, yet, and some that have, too.
Click to expand...

I cannot really speak for the US anymore, but as an American living in France I can tell you that the payscale model has changed. Your day rate as a DOP is now most readily identifiable by the kind of camera you use. Guess what? The more expensive the camera you use generally the higher your day rate. So when they go with top end operators, they are going with "Alexa" guys, if they have only a medium budget they might use a RED Epic or a Sony F55, little budgets and you are in C100/300 or FS700 territory. Blackmagic, AF100, DSLR's etc are for really "aint got no cash" jobs. Kind of stupid I know, but gone are the days when the DOP choses the camera he feels is appropriate for the job. The client is having none of it. So to make a long story short, there is no way in high heaven that an URSA would be proposed for a 60K Varicam type job. At least in France. Which is exactly why Panasonic positioned the camera where it is and why a lower to mid-level job guy is not going to be able to afford it. That said my experience of the higher end cameras is that they tend to be more solid and reliable, and I am sure that the Varicam will be as well. Certainly the Alexa is built like a tank and if I was doing a six week job, I would certainly take it over most of these other cameras any day of the week if only for that reason alone.
 
Last edited:
yoclay said:
Guess what? The more expensive the camera you use generally the higher your day rate. So when they go with top end operators, they are going with "Alexa" guys, if they have only a medium budget they might use a RED Epic or a Sony F55, .......
Click to expand...
Yes, but..... why would anyone specify this Varicam over an Alexa or a Sony F55? Or to be more specific, do you really think they'd be willing to pay a much higher day rate than for a given operator with (say) an F55?

As I said above, the F55 seems to offer some fundamental advantages - global shutter versus rolling for the Varicam being maybe the most obvious. Or am I missing something - is there some killer feature of the new Varicam I've overlooked?

And if the client are only going to pay a similar day rate whether F55 or Varicam, then is the operator expected to make up the much higher capital cost? Surely more sensible just to get an F55 at the much lower price, and also have the advantages of having the known and accepted camera?
 
harddrive said:
Yes, but..... why would anyone specify this Varicam over an Alexa or a Sony F55? Or to be more specific, do you really think they'd be willing to pay a much higher day rate than for a given operator with (say) an F55?

As I said above, the F55 seems to offer some fundamental advantages - global shutter versus rolling for the Varicam being maybe the most obvious. Or am I missing something - is there some killer feature of the new Varicam I've overlooked?

And if the client are only going to pay a similar day rate whether F55 or Varicam, then is the operator expected to make up the much higher capital cost? Surely more sensible just to get an F55 at the much lower price, and also have the advantages of having the known and accepted camera?
Click to expand...

The Varicam HS will be direct competition for the Amira from Arri and that camera is by no means established. So anyone working in higher end B4 will definitely be considering the Varicam. In terms of the owner operator cost thing, yes definitely they are expected to make up the difference. Look, I see RED camera packages go out every day for 350 euros and I know the operator paid 35K for his package. In fact one of the reasons there is so much downward pressure on day rates is because of the owner operator scenario. Too many people own RED's. Thus only the "too expensive" to own cameras maintain their rental value.
 
Last edited:
1st wave rich guys will pay premium for this toward end of 2014. But after a year or so, there'll likely be rebates & discounts of at least $10-20K to stay competitive with the rest. This happened w/ the HPX3700 & 2700 several years ago. B4 lenses are still being widely used. I can't find any native PL super telephoto lenses (in range w/ B4 EFP lenses) under 6 lbs. EFP lenses and a real optical stabilizer (must have for outdoor wildlife shoot) yet. Don't like adaptor that looses 2-3 stops and no way carrying myself a 25 lbs. PL lens in the wild.
 
lonewolf2koc@hotmail.com said:
Don't like adaptor that looses 2-3 stops and no way carrying myself a 25 lbs. PL lens in the wild.
Click to expand...
The adaptor may mean the f stop is 2-3 stops less than used on a 2/3" camera - but (all else equal) an s35 camera will be 2-3 stops intrinsically more sensitive than one for 2/3".

The effects cancel each other out.

So for a given lens, the lowlight capability will be irrelevant whether it's used as intended on a 2/3" camera or on an s35 camera with adapter. Same goes for depth of field. If you don't alter the iris ring, then it will also be identical on either setup.

So if your lens is (say) f2, it may translate to f5.6 optically on the s35 camera - but will still give the same lowlight performance, you have to take into account the (better) native ISO performance of the bigger sensor.
 
Will have to do more actual field tests before doing it in the real production w/ the PL to B4 adaptor. Ideally, the expensive Sony F55 and preferably the cheaper upcoming BM Ursa Broadcast edition. But somehow the B4 2/3" just doesn't look as sharp and crisp as with the native PL lens. I pretty much have to shoot from 80-90% zoom range only. Anywhere else is just a bit soft. Fortunately nothing is delivered to broadcasters in 4K yet. The BM Ursa is quite affordable but still skeptical at challenging shooting conditions. Once I get my hands on the BM Ursa Broadcast model, will have a much better idea. Looks like no lens adaptor needed for B4. This will get interesting..

harddrive said:
The adaptor may mean the f stop is 2-3 stops less than used on a 2/3" camera - but (all else equal) an s35 camera will be 2-3 stops intrinsically more sensitive than one for 2/3".

The effects cancel each other out.

So for a given lens, the lowlight capability will be irrelevant whether it's used as intended on a 2/3" camera or on an s35 camera with adapter. Same goes for depth of field. If you don't alter the iris ring, then it will also be identical on either setup.

So if your lens is (say) f2, it may translate to f5.6 optically on the s35 camera - but will still give the same lowlight performance, you have to take into account the (better) native ISO performance of the bigger sensor.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top