Panasonic Varicam 35 & Varicam HS

.....although i suppose at least the F55 exists - the Varicam sounds like it's actually still in prototype stage! Whatever it can do will probably be irrelevant by the time it actually hits the shops! Panny have almost been forgotten they've been out of the game so long.
Steve
 
William_Robinette said:
The fact that one company is and has been a world leader for ages in broadcast and cinema with a quality product out and working everyday all over the world.

And the other is a computer peripheral producer turned camera maker with an awful track record.
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And the AJA camera - same story? AFAIK they have an excellent track record in the industry?
Steve
 
The URSA isn't even in the same ballpark at the F55 - in any way. The F55 is a product of top notch engineering. There are many good reasons for the disparity in price, most have been enumerated already. I think that to suggest otherwise is just being provocative.
 
hscully said:
The F55 is a product of top notch engineering
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I think that's actually debatable!
I know it sounds like I'm being provocative, but I assure you I'm not, just up for a discussion as an interested party.
I think someone else mentioned the fact that we've been spolit by "cheap" cameras - and I agree. The Varicam is actually along the price lines that we should expect in this sector - the F55 is really cheap - and amazing at that price point, but I think that "cheapness" does show through in places.
Steve
 
steve phillipps said:
And the AJA camera - same story? AFAIK they have an excellent track record in the industry?
Steve
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But not with the manufacture of cameras. That's a whole new kettle of fish.

I'll say, I'm not a fan of the F55. Don't like the picture, don't like operating it - BUT personal opinion aside it is an extremely well sorted camera. From a company that actually seems to put cameras in operators hands and apply their feedback. BM's cameras are a joke not only in operation but just the most basic aspect of holding the dang thing. Student films, low priority corporate, vacation videos - sure I can see them being used there. Walk onto a $100,000 commercial set and someone is getting fired. And that is the area they look like they are trying to compete in. One dominated by Arri, RED, Sony, and to a certain extent the C500. You know, camera companies.
 
I think now we have cameras with no working parts reliability is less of a concern than it was back in the tape days. The AJA
looks quite promising. I liked the URSA right up until I saw that screen I dont need a ten inch monitor on my camera i need a viewfinder. I need to learn a bit more about AJA as a brand - are they reliable?
 
I reckon that as with most sectors all manufacturers have several tiers of product. With Nikon stills cameras for instance you have beginner stuff like D7000, then high quality mid-level stuff D700, then you have top tier stuff like the D3 - the D700 and D3 are virtually identical spec-wise and yet the D3 cost 3x as much - there are reasons for that. Likewise with musical instruments - you can get a Les Paul guitar for £150, or £350, or £700 or £1700 - all ostensibly the same, but obviously not under the skin. I see the F55 as mid-tier - it's a really cheap camera, looks kind of "semi-pro", and that's why I wasn't surprised in the slightest at the price of the Varicam - it looks higher-grade to me. That doesn't of course mean it's any better!
Steve
 
Steve, when you say cheap regarding the F55 do you mean the body or the controls? That could be but the engineering that is impressive to me is in the sampling and color science. They capture images very competently. I know some DPs that don't like the images, sometimes characterized as clinical, but for fidelity to color and resolution they are extremely deliberate and dead on accurate. That's got to count for something. I think the F55 is a great value and it's use in TV applications testifies to it.

The Varicam looks like a tank. It looks like the F65 and I bet it's physically splendid. I can't wait to see the images too. I'm sure it's worth it. It's not in my wheel house at this moment but I'm sure it's worth every penny.
 
Yes, body and controls. Not that it's bad, it's just like the difference between Nikno D700 and D3 - the D3 feels much more "serious", like F55 vs Alexa, or a Canon XL-H1 compared to a Sony HDW900 I suppose - an upper-echelon bit of kit feels and looks like one. The F55 feels like a mid-range cameras - but specs are top-notch of course and well up to pro use - as was the Nikon D700.
Steve
 
Fit and finish count. Notwithstanding being front heavy, that AJA CION is physically a good design, has a good feature set, and is affordable. If the images are accurate and pleasing, somebody makes a mount for my lenses, and the RAW recording sorts out, then that's the one that is most interesting newcomer.
 
ryaninoz said:
I dont need a ten inch monitor on my camera i need a viewfinder
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...But wouldn't a 1080 HD viewfinder jack the price considerably?

You've got to be certain that your 4K footage is always in focus, and a 10 inch monitor seems like the least expensive way of delivering 1080 HD resolution.
 
I prefer a viewfinder to check exposure or to film outside. LCDs are o.k. in darker environments but can not be trusted like a enclosed viewfinder. Having a 10" LCD as a flipout is just not very practical the more I think of it. At first it looked cool but but would put your face a few inches away if you are needing to touch the lens. 10" screen size is great but not right up against yourself.
 
I think the 10" monitor as a flip out LCD is awkward. There's nothing wrong with a 10" monitor but I wouldn't want it attached permanently to the camera.
 
steve phillipps said:
Yes, body and controls. Not that it's bad, it's just like the difference between Nikno D700 and D3 - the D3 feels much more "serious", like F55 vs Alexa, .........
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Steve, have you actually had the chance to handle the new Varicam? Because whilst I've seen the F55, I've only seen pictures of the Varicam and from those I was struck by how similar they look in physical aspects. Is the Varicam really any more robust physically.....?

Enough to make it worth twice the price.....? Enough to compensate for factors like an absence of compressed RAW....? Global shutter....? Capability to be used as a live camera....? I hear what you say about stills cameras, and hear what you say about resolution certainly not being everything there - but in terms of pro features it still strikes me it's the Varicam that's overall shorter on such - whilst being far more expensive. And if it's still not a finished product, still not ready to ship, who knows what other manufacturers will have brought out by the time it is?

And I still wonder about comments along the lines of the "look" of the picture, good or bad. Surely that's so much down to camera line-up rather than the camera itself in this price range? Even more so when thinking of RAW?
hscully said:
I think the 10" monitor as a flip out LCD is awkward. There's nothing wrong with a 10" monitor but I wouldn't want it attached permanently to the camera.
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I quite like the idea of a 10" flip out screen - but AS WELL as a more conventional viewfinder. There are certainly occasions where the flip out could be useful - but there are many other occasions where it's not going to be practical - bright sunlight being the most obvious.
 
$55K for Varicam HS is pretty steep. Was hoping something more in the $40K range for HS 2/3" and $55 for 4K. That's more reasonable. I guess Panasonic desperately need to recoup their R&D.
 
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harddrive said:
Steve, have you actually had the chance to handle the new Varicam?
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Nope, freely admit that I've not - and not actually investigated it too much, it's just the impression I got when looking at the first press release - in no way did I think it was going to be arounf F5 or F55 prices as many hoped. We'll have to see - it could well be that it is in the same tier as the F55 and absolutely comparable but twice the price. i just think that to see the F55 as a real top of the line camera and "top notch engineering" is a bit of a stretch - if you look back at the top tier over the last 20 years they've all looked the part and with build and performance to match. Look at an Alexa, a Phantom HD, an Arriflex SR3, an original tape Varicam - these are very obviously at the top of the tree - but they all cost between £50-100,000 at release!
I can't see the new Varicams making a massive impact to be honest, think Panny really have dropped the ball in the last few years - much as Nikon did a few years back and 90% of pros switched to Canon.
Steve
 
Steve, you need to read up on the F55 and not judge it because you don't like the box it came in. Their Color Filter Array and use of S-Gamut is truly a feat of real engineering. That and the multiple codecs and workflow support including ACES, their own RAW. They didn't just put a sensor in front of their existing recorders. Come on, Man. They engineered the crap out of that camera.

It's not a concept camera like some of these new guys. I'm sure that the Varicam is engineered beautifully as well. That's why they cost all that money. You never hear anyone complaining about the cost of an Alexa. How come?
 
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I never said I didn't like the box - I do actually, the small modular thing is nice. I'm sure there are plenty of good bits in it, as there are in the semi-pro stills cameras like the Nikon D700 that I mentioned, there's only a few bit and pieces that elevate something to a "pro" bit of kit and a "pro" price to match! For most people and most uses it's not worth the extra money - and that'll be the case with the F55 vs Varicam I'm sure - I really don't see the Panny making much of an impact, but we'll see.
Steve
 
I got to mess around with the new Vari's(HS & s35) for a little bit and speak(briefly) to some people involved with development and testing, including one of the head engineers. Firstly, the cameras at NAB were prototypes. They are not the finished products. They were on on Fisher dolly's and rigged out, you couldn't throw them on your shoulder(Lol). I actually got a little mad when one of the sales/exec type guys said something to me about sitting on the dolly and checking the camera out. I told him I owned three VariCam's, currently. I'm someone he should be woo-ing(I should have said that, but decided to play nice). As I said, these are not necessarily how the finished bodies will look, but they are not ENG bodies like the current and previous Vari's(27F/H & 2700/3700). More like Alexa meets F55. The heads are quick disconnect, though. The head and deck separate with a lever(if I could figure out how to post pics, I would. It never works for me).

My biggest concern with the current specs is the lack of Global Shutter and flash banding. The sales/exec type tried to play it down, but the engineer was more forthright and seemed to acknowledged that in it's current design, there would be flash banding because it's a rolling shutter(which is slightly contradictory to what I posted earlier on another thread or two, but I had not spoken to an engineer at that point). Part of their reasoning behind that was that rolling shutter sensors are more sensitive(this is widely known on the F5 and F55) and he said they have more dynamic range. I would gladly trade a little sensitivity to not have flash banding or the possibility of skew. Whether this changes or not on the final version, who know… But I did at least get a chance to voice my concern about it to someone who actually can do something about it. I also brought up the fixed PL mount and that a lot of people(myself included) would like to see swappable mounts. I know that this was also brought up by people that were involved in the beta testing, because I had a conversation with one of those gentleman the day before.

One thing I can say with certainty, if it stays the same, is that the VF image is beautiful. Better than the Alexa. I found on the Arri, if my eye wasn't square and TIGHT against it, the image got blurry. And I'm talking just barely coming off of it, too. The Panny OLED VF also seems unique(at least to my knowledge) in that it has an OPTICAL zoom, in addition to the diopter.

And the price… It's all speculation. Panasonic said final pricing has not been set.

If anyone else had a chance to spend more time and get more in-depth with any of the engineers or others involved with the new Vari's, I'd love to hear what you found out, as well.
 
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If final pricing hasn't been set I'd say they will bring it closer to the f55, maybe between the Alexa and the f55? All this talk of 4k and I think a lot of people forget the Alexa is not actually 4k. You can get 3k with the codex but most people are shooting 2k with it, many with on board pro res. The alexa is still chosen over the f65 and red offerings for many feature films too.
 
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