And that is without a lens…..this is really going after that high end rental market to compete with Dragon/Alexa…..
But I do remember that I spent $35K for my first SD BetaCam…..
Panasonic Varicam 35 & Varicam HS
- Thread starter dcloud
- Start date
And that is without a lens…..this is really going after that high end rental market to compete with Dragon/Alexa…..
But I do remember that I spent $35K for my first SD BetaCam…..
Run&Gun
Veteran
And I remember a friend dropping six figures on an SD Digital BetaCam… Thank goodness I didn't pull the $60K trigger on a D600WS back in the day and waited and got a D50WS for less than half(maybe 1/3rd) that out performed it.
I told my rep the other day that I think if they want market penetration like that of the previous two generations of Vari's they're going to have to have a deal like they did with the P2 Vari's. Put the cams out for a while, then offer a "trade in" or other type of discount deal to get it into more people's hands.
No global shutter at that supposed price, this far into the game, is insane. 120 frames at 4k is a class leading spec, but I want to know if it will go higher at lower resolutions on the s35 head, like 240fps at 2K or HD.
steve phillipps
Veteran
Almost - Epic does 150fps at 4k.
Interesting about prices, it was talked about early in this thread - it used to be assumed and the norm that top-tier cameras always came in at arounf £60,000 and then after a year or two came down to around £40,000 - and that's what everyone bought, because that was what was needed and that's all their was - it was just a question of Sony or Panasonic more or less.
Now we're in a totally different market, spurred partly by RED and also by the DSLR video boom. Now a £10,000 is seen as the norm, and on the upper-end side, while your budget-minded people go for £2,000 DSLRs or BM Cinema cameras. The idea of a £40,000 camera making big news in this market seems very unlikely, even though 10 years ago it would have seemed a bargain!
Steve
steve phillipps
Veteran
Goodbye for a lot of owner /shooters, but there certainly is interest from some broadcasters I have spoken to.
Steve
Steve
SJX
Veteran
Sony F65 does 120fps in 4K since 2012 and has global shutter.
Spartacus
Veteran
Well, their original Varicam market anyway. At least now I have hope again for a killer AF100 successor at NAB. If they stick to MFT there may even be much need to crippling the camera against the Varicam...
Run&Gun
Veteran
Sorry I misspoke. I meant that the s35 VariCam being capable of 120 fps @ 4K puts it with the leaders of the class, not THE(sole) class leader.
I was referring to the VariCam not having a global shutter, not that no other cameras in the class don't have one, either. And does the F65 have an "electronic global shutter" or is it just because it has a spinning mirror, like the Alexa Studio?
Run&Gun
Veteran
You may be right… At the supposed price, it would be hard to "just go and buy one" like I did with the P2 version when they offered the insane discount. I was told by a BIG client to buy my tape Vari. It was a no-brainer then, because I was walking into a multi-year deal with them that required it. And the way it's looking right now, that's what it would probably take for me to buy the new one.
I really, really want to like the new one(s), mostly because I've loved the three that I own. But, there are just some negatives that are hard to overlook, only one of which is price.
steve phillipps
Veteran
Pretty much with you on all of that, and in the same boat having owned both tape and P2 Varicams and loving them both and wanting these new ones to be winners...but struggling to see it happening.
Steve
An interesting point was recently made to me about this type of camera and high frame rates, which is whether or not the sensor is scanned differently at high frame rate, and whether the quality differs between normal and high frame rate shooting. I would hope that in a camera of this class and cost the answer is "no" - but is that the case?
To illustrate the point, then remember the FS700 - it's capable of some very high frame rates - but they come at a price in terms of resolution and aliasing. Not too bad at the medium rates, but immediately noticeable (and objectionable) on normal pictures at the highest rate. (960fps, IIRC?)
Now in a camera of that price and class, that's acceptable - you just have to realise that it's a case of EITHER best quality OR high frame rates. But at the high end, it isn't - which is why I suspect such a feature is missing from the F55. (Even though some may have preferred to have it as an option.) So the question is - and I have no idea of the answer - what happens with the Varicam at 4k 120fps? Is the frame-frame quality identical between 60 and 120fps modes, or does it change due to differing sensor scanning?
Although this thread is about the Varicam, the question is equally valid to all such cameras. It's one thing for manufacturers to glibly state resolution and frame rate numbers, but is it safe to assume we still get the same quality at their higher quoted framerates?
[EDIT: If you want a bit more detail, then look at this post and the link to Adam Wilts look at the FS7 - http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?328361-New-Sony-FS7&p=1986474890&viewfull=1#post1986474890 . The FS7 appears to do similar to the FS700, which is hardly surprising.]
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steve phillipps
Veteran
I would certainly assume that it would be full resolution. The classic example of cameras that have done line skipping are the Sony PDW line - starting with the PDW350 and continuing with the PW800. They both did 1080 upto 60fps, but above 30fps they only read every other line, so giving half vertical resolution which was then interpolated into 1080. I get the feeling the new Sony PXW X500 will do the same above 60fps.
Steve
Steve
I'd taken it as read up until now - but after the comment made to me just wonder if assumption is a dangerous thing.....?
Sony weren't exactly forthcoming about exactly what the FS700 was doing until charts made it obvious. I stress I'm not slating the FS700 and it's highest framerates - if you're doing (say) sports analysis than 960fps at much reduced quality is a feature well worth having.
It's more the lower HFR rates that matter when the quality drop isn't as obvious. In this case, the 4k 120fps feature is the one aspect that the Varicam apparently leads the competition with. But if it's derived via something other than full sensor readout and same res as normal 4k, that goes away. You may as well shoot at HFR 1080 and upscale.
steve phillipps
Veteran
Again, it doesn't lead the competition exactly, just competes with them - at the price point mentioned the competition is Epic Dragon and F65 - which do 150 and 120fps.
Steve
Steve
lonewolf2koc@hotmail.com
Well-known member
Has anyone used this $14K B4 adaptor for the Sony F5 & F55?
Sony LA-FZB2 B4 Lens to FZ Mount Adapter for F5 & F55
Not sure if there's any light loss or any other issues. But this looks like a good workaround for those special situations where B4 lens is needed over PL. The Black Magic URSA B4 is tempting but I just don't feel comfortable with it due to its lower cost and many hidden compromises in quality.
The Varicam HS is nice. But the price is way too steep these days. I have to look at other options.
B4 lenses are simply too irresistible for many shooting situations.
Sony LA-FZB2 B4 Lens to FZ Mount Adapter for F5 & F55
Not sure if there's any light loss or any other issues. But this looks like a good workaround for those special situations where B4 lens is needed over PL. The Black Magic URSA B4 is tempting but I just don't feel comfortable with it due to its lower cost and many hidden compromises in quality.
The Varicam HS is nice. But the price is way too steep these days. I have to look at other options.
B4 lenses are simply too irresistible for many shooting situations.
steve phillipps
Veteran
The Sony adapter is very similar to the IBE one, it loses 2.6 stops of light - it's basically a 2.6x teleconverter. Because it's a teleconverter it's going to hit optical quality to some degree and for decent results you tend to need to stop the lens done at least another stop and a half - so basically you're losing about 4 stops of light. The IBE has been used a lot on RED Epic and Phantom Flex for wildlife work, with mixed feelings and mixed results - although the image quality is better than I would have expected.
Steve
Steve
Sony make two similar adaptors - the one you quote, and the LA-FZB1. They seem very similar, with the real difference being that the LA-FZB2 has a set of additional filter wheels and when the F55 is used in live mode (as an OB camera) it's possible to remotely change filter from the OB truck.
The other big difference is that the LA-FZB1 is less than half the price, about $6k........
So unless you have a F55, and you're using it cabled to a truck, there's not much point in paying the extra $8k.
Details of the differences at - http://community.sony.com/t5/F5-F55/New-B4-two-third-inch-adapters/td-p/181553
There is no actual light LOSS to speak of - though the actual effect is to make the f stop 2.6 times smaller. That smaller f stop does *NOT* mean you therefore need nearly 8x as much light, contrary to popular belief, as other variables also change and they act to cancel out.
Assuming all else equal, then moving from a 2/3" sensor to s35 will mean the sensor becomes about 6-7x the area - and so will each photosite. Hence the same number of photons falling on each photosite in each case. The 2/3" case will mean a brighter image in a smaller area, the s35 plus adaptor case will mean a dimmer image over a larger area. Another way of looking at it is that the larger sensor will inherently give a higher base ISO than the 2/3" one for the same s/n - so reduce the f stop, increase the ISO and they cancel out.
Yes, it's basically a teleconvertor in principle, but the reason a normal teleconvertor works as such is because the sensor size remains fixed. And that's what is then responsible for the drop in quality. If in normal use a lens will resolve (say) 2500 line pairs across the picture width, then putting in a 2x teleconvertor will spread that resolution over twice the width - you'll only then get 1250 lp across the sensor.Steve Philips said:
Using the same principle for a 2/3-s35 convertor, the crucial difference is the 2500 line pairs of resolution get spread across the whole (bigger) sensor width and get fully made use off, hence no appreciable resolution drop. (The lines/mm figure will go down, the total number of lines won't.)
And although the IBE and Sony adaptors are indeed similar in principle, the Sony one costs twice the price of the IBE. Hardly surprisingly, it's said to give even better quality and quality drop from using the lens natively is said to be minimal.
Joshua Cadmium
Well-known member
Do you know where you heard/saw this? I was interested in the IBE, and I had doubted that the Sony could be better, but I'd love to hear from someone that's used both.
steve phillipps
Veteran
Well, there is. If the f stop is smaller there is less light. The larger photosites on the bigger sensor may well make up for this, but there is light loss through the adapter.
I agree with your resolution statements though - that's why the performance is better than I thought it would have been.
Steve
lonewolf2koc@hotmail.com
Well-known member
It will take me days to fully understand all of this. But in the meantime, my understanding is that the Varicam HS's optical block will function natively on B4 lenses just like on high end 2/3" ENG/EFP cams. If the Varicam 35 PL shooters are going to use IBE HDx35 Mark 2, it will pretty much be the same as other 4K cams (Alexa, Red, F55, Phantom..). I don't think the Sony adaptor will work on the Panasonic Varicam HS body (or other mfg's), may be wrong on this. But I rather pay double for the Sony adaptor to get better quality. Rarely will use it for live switching scenario. So $6K is fairly reasonable. It is just not cost effective for Varicam 35 4K owner/op having to shell out another $25-50K (on top of the $60K on their Varicam 35 investment) just for native B4 lens capability via swapping the optic module or the whole cam. I do see the advantage of similar look on both of the Varicams. It's just the resolution and max. frame rate differences so far. Most of us already spent 6 figures on PL & B4 lenses and another $25-50K is a considerable expense.
The only concern I have with the adaptor will be the total weight and center of gravity. Not sure it can handle the 6.5 lbs (Fujinon HA25x16.5BERD) + the TS-P58A optical stabilizer (about another 1.5 lbs) that I used extensively for wildlife. They both work fine w/ out any cumbersome support rods on 2/3" cam. But another adaptor may break the whole thing if it's hand-carried in the bumpy field.
The only concern I have with the adaptor will be the total weight and center of gravity. Not sure it can handle the 6.5 lbs (Fujinon HA25x16.5BERD) + the TS-P58A optical stabilizer (about another 1.5 lbs) that I used extensively for wildlife. They both work fine w/ out any cumbersome support rods on 2/3" cam. But another adaptor may break the whole thing if it's hand-carried in the bumpy field.
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