Panasonic unveiled G1-HD...

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There's a threshold where skew becomes unacceptable, in psychological terms, its called the JND (just noticeable difference). We all know skew and "jello" are the same thing, but more correctly jello is just a painfully slow read/reset time on the sensor, which results in not just a singular skew, but multiple skew gradients, resulting in the "jello" image, which I think is a very accurate description of what's going on. So what if people say the camera has skew, not jello? EVERY camera, including film cameras, that DO NOT have a global shutter have some degree of skew.In fact, to get "the film look," one has to agree that some degree of skew is desirable. "jello" however, is never desirable, and should probably be thought of as a separate "entity" because to go from a single skew gradient to a multiple skew gradient, the read/reset time has to be much slower. Let's call it jello.
 
mattsand said:
yeah sorry, i'm just getting tired of not being listened to.
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The effect is more pronounced depending on the direction the camera is moving, right? Quick camera movement is generally horizontal, while vertical movement is generally much diminished in most shots. The GH1 sensor is clearly much better at dealing with this issue than previous sensors, and combined with the lesser movement of cameras vertically, this increased performance may effectively eliminate the effect for practical shooting purposes.

However, if you need to do a vertical whip pan you might be able to produce the effect enough for it to be a problem.

I think this is consistent with what both of you are saying, and thus neither of you are giving BS.
 
Skew is a rolling shutter artifact when you pan and vertical lines on the picture bend. Jello, is when you shake a camera and the rolling shutter artifact (the same in skew, but in a different movement pattern) makes you want to puke. C'mon, there isn't any official definition of "jello-cam" in the ASC manual. The important part of this discussion is: Some cameras have more acceptable skew that others, for instance, the Mk II is much better in this regard than the D90 (probably because of the framerate too), and I can handhold a Mk II (with difficulty), but I can't operate the D90 handheld. That's useful information, on my book. Would love to know more about the GH-1 too.
 
Kay, while you guys rant and rave about Jello-- Dare I post a RED Clip @ 135mm showing skew? Dare I show it @ 120FPS as well? LOL -- I'm gonna rant and rave about...

The High-Res Flip Out LCD. MMMMMMM My gahd. Look, I know it's TOTALLY consumer oriented, it's gadgetfied and semi-cheesey... but when I go to shoot low mode and have to lay my freaking face on the ground just to see the LCD?

Nah, this is bad-ass. And it's not like it hasn't existed before, but combining it with DSLR ViDEO (Liza termed it EVIL in another thread) is really cool. Nifty. neat. When you jump to shoot something it's practical(ly) awesome.

It's one of the many features I'm looking forward to salivating over.
 
I really hope they find a professional or two to shoot something with this before they release it. I agree with Liza that the Vincent Laforet footage was a great move by Canon.
 
I hope they get one into someone's hands that's in contact with a large community like this. Someone who's worked with the HVX/HPX series cameras, RED, D90 etc and can really give us thoughts on how it compares.

And that person also produces something nice. Doesn't have to be helicopter shots, I'd take a very short narrative piece or a tastefully done action sequence.
 
And while I'm still thinkin' about this, I am a D90 owner and I've gone through the paces with it. All things considered, when I output a RAW d90 file (without Mattias' correction applied) on my 46" 1080 Samsung LCD... It doesn't look HORRID. you know? It's like "Hey, i could use this for a Music Video" kind of decent, even with the stairstepping present.

At 10+ Feet away, the stairstepping isn't noticable for one thing, and it looks pretty nice until skew rears it's ugly head.

So, take the AVC_HD at a low compression rate, 1080/24P... DavidNJ states that this is probably already beating out the D90 by a longshot and that's probably a nice area to be in-- between 5D and D90-- for everything.

So, it honestly doesn't really have to be AS GOOD AS the 5D's image considering price. What it may lack there it probably makes up for and beyond with feature sets and affordability: manual controls come to mind.

Just thinking out loud.
 
i'm actually cool with the d90 quality. but what bugs me is the possibility it will overheat, the bitrate could be better and no control over shutter. that's it. otherwise d90 has made me. i just think the gh1 will be a lot easier to work with.
 
Until june it´s a long time. Now a lot of guys is willing to throw up their D90s for sale and wanna buy a GH1. But in a few weeks or month Nikon will pronounce their new toys - lets it call D400, D800, D5000 or whatever. I´m pretty sure that this will change the purchase intentions a lot - in any event my.....
 
if the GH1 is going to retail for $1500 and under, just rumor, nikon won't match it. just look at their d3x how it debuted at $8k for almost the same exact specs as the canon 5d minus video.
 
The price rumors for the D400 are around 2000,- bucks, for the D5000 about 600,- and for a D800 maybe 3000-4000,-. It´ll depend on the features they will offer to make a decision. But im kinda sure it will be good products - that´s only my humble opinion... ;-)
 
GH1 not being full frame is disappointing. but i guess panasonic is pushing a whole line of everything with their sensor size. It's brave of them to lead the way with the 1st officially announced dslr with manual video, pushing corporate scheming, video division, $ aside (Canon :) ) .

things will only get better for us with this, and i think 09 is the year of some solid dslr video camera foundation.

canon will now have to respond to this (unfortunately, not due to hearing its customers, but due to panasonic pushing it to a resolution) perhaps this response is as simple as a firmware update on 5d II. maybe it comes out even before GH1 (uh... this wont be too good for Panasonic).

nikon has to respond with something also, so perhaps D400 or whatever else is rumored is around the corner. my hope is that it comes out full frame. as nikon hasnt yet responded to 5D.

my hopes are to stick with nikon primes and hopefully get a full frame 1080 (in response to 5d) and manual control (in response to GH1) in the next nikon DSLR which hopefully gives better bitrate (less jello) and better codec.
 
Kholi said:
Liza termed it EVIL in another thread
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I must admit, I totally stole that. And the flip-out LCD has become a required feature for me, too.

Kholi said:
So, it honestly doesn't really have to be AS GOOD AS the 5D's image considering price. What it may lack there it probably makes up for and beyond with feature sets and affordability: manual controls come to mind.
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True, I just don't see a reason that it won't meet or surpass the 5D. Maybe the 5D will be able to produce a more desaturated image than the GH1, that's probably my biggest worry at this point (that the GH1 won't allow you to go far enough, though I don't know that the 5D does.)

capice said:
Until june it´s a long time. ... But in a few weeks or month Nikon will pronounce their new toys - lets it call D400, D800, D5000 or whatever. I´m pretty sure that this will change the purchase intentions a lot - in any event my.....
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I don't think so. I think the thing that really makes the GH1 compelling is that Panasosonic got it, they understood who their target market is. This is why it shoots 24. (I guess Nikon got it right there too.) This is why it shoots with manual control and a custom designed lens.

A firmware release or new camera this year from Nikon or Canon is not going to do that-- I don't think they are going to start making HD lenses that are quiet enough for video. (Maybe they already are quiet enough).

More importantly, I don't think they really get it about video. Video is a convenience feature to put on their cameras. I think even Canon is not really interested in cinematography.... they just wanted to show off and hired Mr. Laforte to do it.

IF they have gotten it, then they will start projects to produce the kind of products we're imagining, but I think that it will take at least a year to do so.

Panasonic has a real lead here and for a legitimate reason--- in fact, I think they will have the arena to themselves until they sell enough of these things to make Nikon or Canon feel threatened.

The competition for the GH1 is, I think, more likely to come from Samsung than from Nikon or Canon. Canon is in protection mode with their products and focused on Nikon. Nikon doesn't have a camcorder line to protect, but I think is too focused on Canon.

I could be wrong, of course, this is just my read of the market.
 
Car3o said:
i'm actually cool with the d90 quality. but what bugs me is the possibility it will overheat, the bitrate could be better and no control over shutter. that's it. otherwise d90 has made me. i just think the gh1 will be a lot easier to work with.
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It will be interesting to see if it overheats too. I was shooting some test shots at home last night with the D90 on the steadytracker and it overheated. It was 24 degrees C inside (75 degrees f) It shut down just as I'd locked my exposure for 50hz fluoro's! So annoying!
 
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