Panasonic unveiled G1-HD...

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You are correct about the d90 being a terrible video camera. My Sony V1 produces excellent video, and is still what I grab for docu/ run and gun style shooting.

What the d90 represents is a FIRST affordable step to digital cinema--very different from video. My point was that the Canon Mk II is better--but at what price, and the GH-1 at best cannot approach the EVENTUAL quality of full frame 35mm digital imagers based on optics and physics. The quality of the good d90 work on the web speaks for itself in terms of the film look. Even allowing for poor compression rates, etc. the d90 holds its own. Even on old VHS tapes you could tell what was shot on film!

So everyone to their own poison, but I was trying to explain my rationale in picking the d90 for now. If money were no object the Canon would be my choice--but the GH-1 truly represents a compromise at best. It is probably a better video camera though!

--RA
 
That's the only concern I have about the GH1 is that it looks too "video like". If the D400 has manual shutter control double the mjpeg bitrate and no overheating I'll be satisfied for now.......it's the least nikon could do considering it will cost double what the D90 costs!
 
there are just so many clips out there on the web showcasing the gh1 that no wonder it you think it looks like video. the two from Mullen who thought 24p was too "jerky"...right. Wasn't the DVX the first affordable step to digital cinema. You said that you chose the d90 because it's the best low-cost entree into real 35mm imaging and lenses, when in fact it's not. You do not get 35mm dof with the d90. Compare it to the Gh1's specs on paper, the Gh1 bests it by a long shot at the same price. Probably more expensive now cause the d90's been out for almost half a year. Yes the Gh1 is much weaker in terms of how big it's sensor is when you put it up against the Mk2, but that's comparing apples and oranges. Put the d90's sensor, which is the same size as the red, against the Gh1 and you're comparing granny smith apples to red delicious apples. 25%. There's not nearly enough of anything for the gh1 to make any type of assumption, especially judging from Mullens clips...sorry, if you can't tell the difference between 60p and 24p, you don't need to be posting clips. But the gh1's specs, sensor and just about everything else makes the d90's purchase a regret.
 
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specs are one thing, real world performance is another.

The DOF of the D90 looked pretty close to 35mm in the zacuto shootout.

I'm not dismissing the GH1 but if its low light and noise performance are like the G1 it will be a poor performer against the D90. And clearly it's depth of field with a 2x crop factor and smaller sensor won't be as shallow as the D90's. It might not be noticeable enough to be a big issue though.

The GH1's codec and bitrate is a big improvement on the D90 but not even close to the 5D. I expect nikon will have that sorted in the D400. If the 5D can have a really good codec and bitrate why can't the D400?

I have no regrets buying the D90 but it's days are numbered as it is soon to be replaced by a 2nd gen HDSLR.
 
Using fast lenses SI claims the 2/3rd SK2k achieves near 35mm DOF.

How can I approximate the look of 35mm depth-of-field if I'm using the SI-2K and it only has a 2/3" sensor?
Because the SI-2K is a single sensor design, wider-aperture S16mm film lenses can be used such as the Ziess Superspeeds, which can go to a maximum aperture of f1.2. This is in comparison to the widest aperture 3-CCD primes, which are limited to an f-stop of f1.5.
In the comparison below, we have taken a 20mm Zeiss Superspeed S16 lens set at a f-stop of f1.4, and compared it to two common 35mm formats. The subject is 3 meters away from the focal plane. The results, using the depth-of-field calculator on the Panavison New Zealand website are as follows:
--2/3" Sensor, 20mm lens, f1.4 (which is possible using Zeiss Superspeeds) - Depth-of-field of 1.39m
--Panavision Std 35mm HDTV 16:9 TV Trans 0.825x0.464" (CoC=0.001"), f5.6, 45mm lens - Depth-of-field of 1.31m
--Arri Std 35mm HDTV 16:9 TV Trans 21x11.8mm (CoC=0.025mm), f5.6, 43mm lens - Depth-of-field of 1.43m
The surprising conclusion from these calculations shows that the SI-2Ks depth-of-field, when using this large aperture Ziess S16mm lens, can in fact be the equivalent of a given 35mm format's depth-of-field when shooting at an f-stop of f5.6 in 35mm (for the same FOV). Also, if one were to shoot at f1.2 (which Zeiss Superspeeds can open up to at their wides aperture setting), the depth-of-field on the 2/3" sensor would be equivalent to a f4-f5.6 split in 35mm, since f1.2 is another half-stop wider than f1.4. This does not mean that a 2/3" sensor will always match 35mm film or a 35mm-sized sensor in DOF, but it does prove an advantage to using S16mm prime lenses on the SI-2K, where ground-glass converters and other "tricks" are not necessarily needed if one's aim is to get shallow "35mm-like" DOF. A similar effect to the shallow DOF of a 35mm camera can be achieved by placing Superspeed S16mm optics on the SI-2K and opening them up to their widest apertures.
Click to expand...
 
squig said:
specs are one thing, real world performance is another.

The DOF of the D90 looked pretty close to 35mm in the zacuto shootout.

I'm not dismissing the GH1 but if its low light and noise performance are like the G1 it will be a poor performer against the D90. And clearly it's depth of field with a 2x crop factor and smaller sensor won't be as shallow as the D90's. It might not be noticeable enough to be a big issue though.

The GH1's codec and bitrate is a big improvement on the D90 but not even close to the 5D. I expect nikon will have that sorted in the D400. If the 5D can have a really good codec and bitrate why can't the D400?

I have no regrets buying the D90 but it's days are numbered as it is soon to be replaced by a 2nd gen HDSLR.
Click to expand...

You can match 35mm dof as David NJ just pointed out by getting fast lens. Barry also mentioned a 1.4 on the Gh1 would be almost equivalent to 35mm dof. And remember this is on a sensor 3x's that of a 2/3rd. As far as your concern for noise and what not for Gh1 well you're comparing stills. You may not know this, but the d90 out performs the professional D300 in noise and dynamic range. If you aren't using shallow dof right, it doesn't matter how big your frame is, it'll still suck and look stupid. I'll say this again, no point in even comparing the gh1 or d90 to the Mk2, it's just dumb to keep comparing the two.
 
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I think Squig got my point--that we should be looking forward to the next gen dSLR's. That's where the payoff will be. The GH-1 is a bit of a step in the wrong direction because of the smaller imager.

The numbers comparing DOF for 2/3" imagers were interesting--an F1.2 2/3" lens will match an F4.4 35mm lens for DOF. But what if you are using an F1.4 lens on the 35mm? Nothing the 2/3" imager can do to compare. Obviously the GH-1 is bigger than 2/3", so it will be a closer match.

I knowingly compromised with the d90 as I build a complete system around it. In a year I am guessing that another $900 Nikon body will take the d90's place in my system, with the compromises of resolution/manual settings/compression solved.
 
I did indeed, and we have both been thinking along the same lines building a complete system in anticipation of a "brain" upgrade.

What we want is a HDSLR with the 5D's codec/bit rate/1080p, the GH1's manual control, and the D90's 24p/dynamic range/low light capability.
 
A 5D or equivalent with 24p and manual shutter is pretty much the holy grail to me! It's not like there's some limitation in the technology anymore.....just a limitation in the marketing execs head. And it is something that's affordable for us lowly indie filmmakers
 
I want a lot more. Closer to an HMC150 with the Canon's sensor, removable lens, compact flash, and AVC 10-bit 4:2:2 long gop at 100Mb/s or more...in all frame sizes and resolutions. I want a screen with all the features of the new Marshall. And I want a full functioned remote control with a huge markable focus knob with multiple adjustable 'stops'.
 
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