Panasonic S1H Announcement Tuesday, August 27th
- Thread starter TheDingo
- Start date
cyvideo
Veteran
Newsshooter 1st impressions on the S1H... interesting.
Chris Young
https://www.newsshooter.com/2019/09/09/panasonic-s1h-footage-first-impressions/
Chris Young
https://www.newsshooter.com/2019/09/09/panasonic-s1h-footage-first-impressions/
Bassman2003
Veteran
Interesting that the video centric version of the S1 seems to get a worse review than the original. I do not remember anybody complaining about noise in regards to the S1. And is dynamic range just some kind of marketing punching bag or what? We hear all of the claims then the cameras come out and the same limitations exist. A real 14 stop camera should have glowing reviews and yet there is a hangup in the highlights. DR in the blacks is great but highlights have always been the achilles heel of digital cameras.
As Matthew of NewsShooter states, this is a "first impressions" article and not a review. They do intend on doing a full review that will include lab tests for dynamic range, etc... when the S1H is finished and shipping. The Cinema5D website has the Panasonic S1 camera as number 3 on their list of cameras they have tested with maximum dynamic range ( ARRI Mini is number 1, BM Ursa Pro 4.6K G2 is number2, with the Sony FS7 as number 4 ), so I would expect to see a good DR performance from the S1H when it is finally shipping.
puredrifting
Major Contributor
I agree with Matt Allard, it's rare to go from pre-production prototypes to having significant core changes in the shipping versions. It's usually the engineering team enabling small operational and convenience firmware tweaks before launch.
He was most definitely not impressed by the mixed lighting color handling, noise, especially in dual ISO 4000, the rolling shutter, the AF function and the highlight rolloff. The S1H is probably victim of it's own hype,
it has been so overhyped in the press and on social media for months now that an actual real camera probably could never meet with the expectations the hype machine has built up. Headlines like, "Panasonic S1H, a $4,000.00 mirrorless Alexa Mini?" probably aren't
especially helpful. It seems to be exactly what it would appear to be, a $4,000.00 prosumer FF GH5. Nothing wrong with that, but I will be surprised if it's a game changer in the same way that the DVX100, HVX200 and GH5 were.
It may indeed have its flaws but, IMO, it shouldn't perform worse than S1, given the identical scenarios. IOW, if S1 doesn't have a a particular problem, then why should S1H?
As to tweaks, XT-3 owners should be familiar with those wonderful firmware upgrades ... sometimes they improve the camera; at other times, you have to scream for the next upgrade to eliminate the crap from the earlier one.
That said, S1 had an AF update that seemed to work pretty well. Dave's footage had a horrible AF performance. It should be fixable.
The rolling shutter, obviously, is what it is.
PS. Panasonic's PR event seemed very Hollyweird. Fencing in 6K? Is this a 1DX MKII clone? Have a model watering flowers in a polka dot dress and be done with it.
As to tweaks, XT-3 owners should be familiar with those wonderful firmware upgrades ... sometimes they improve the camera; at other times, you have to scream for the next upgrade to eliminate the crap from the earlier one.
That said, S1 had an AF update that seemed to work pretty well. Dave's footage had a horrible AF performance. It should be fixable.
The rolling shutter, obviously, is what it is.
PS. Panasonic's PR event seemed very Hollyweird. Fencing in 6K? Is this a 1DX MKII clone? Have a model watering flowers in a polka dot dress and be done with it.
filmguy123
Veteran
I thought the write up was odd given how bullish they were on the S1. There's no way the noise or lowlight or vlog, DR, color or anything else is "worse", yet the whole article seemed damned with faint praise.
Perhaps the article is more a reflection expectations that the camera would rock the S1 in everyway or something... If this is a "better S1" than I don't see why the impressions would be any less enthusiastic than those from the S1. Widely speaking, the S1 was regarded as at least on par with Sony's best offerings, generally stated to be superior.
If the S1H didn't regress, I'm confused how the write up feels so dissapointed on anything outside of statements that such as "not worth the extra cost".
As an aside, 180fps in unideal light, recording to a constrained h.264 codec, is not the best way to get a lowlight/noise impression. Of course its going to be "bad". There just isn't enough data. Even the EVA1 struggles with 120fps RAW unless you really pump up the light, and even then, I generally need to run a pass of Neat Video.
Perhaps the article is more a reflection expectations that the camera would rock the S1 in everyway or something... If this is a "better S1" than I don't see why the impressions would be any less enthusiastic than those from the S1. Widely speaking, the S1 was regarded as at least on par with Sony's best offerings, generally stated to be superior.
If the S1H didn't regress, I'm confused how the write up feels so dissapointed on anything outside of statements that such as "not worth the extra cost".
As an aside, 180fps in unideal light, recording to a constrained h.264 codec, is not the best way to get a lowlight/noise impression. Of course its going to be "bad". There just isn't enough data. Even the EVA1 struggles with 120fps RAW unless you really pump up the light, and even then, I generally need to run a pass of Neat Video.
Yeah I think comparing the S1H to other full frame mirrorless, its is awesome. Aside from the hideous color clipping that kind of ruins everything.
H264 just won't hold a candle to RAW, that said RAW on the S1H should be a different story.
What color clipping? ...The only color clipping I've seen mentioned was stage LED blue light clipping which is pretty much the same for every other digital camera. ( i.e. it's a lighting problem not a camera problem )
Blue content on phones, screens, TVs,
Dark blue clothing in direct sunlight
Blue LEDs
HLG is better than Vlog but the issue is still there. Some people are also having issues with yellow colors clipping in an ugly way.
The Pocket 4k had some weird clipping issues with Red colors I believe, but it could be fixed in post. On the S1 you can't recover any of this. I've never seen anything like this on my XT3.
ReelWorksMedia
Well-known member
Its crazy how this blue clipping highlight issue plagues many many cameras...not just the SH1. Check out Stanger Things season 3. Any of the Mall shots towards the final episodes....looks terrible. Its a fantastic show and I love what they made...but the blue clipping looks like a smurf exploded on their faces.
The blue clipping problem has been around for almost 10 years now. I've seen it with Canon cameras, Panasonic cameras, RED cameras, Sony cameras, and this includes both large TV and film productions. When not shooting RAW, one solution seems to be raising the color temperature of your camera until the blue clipping disappears, and then correcting the color of your footage in post. The source of the problem is these cheap stage LED lights that over-drive a very narrow spectrum of blue light. Replace these defective lights and the problem goes away for all cameras.
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ReelWorksMedia
Well-known member
i'm with you on all of that. Its amazing how vast the issue is.
I suspect its because the native temp of those LED are way high in the kelvin. I shoot concerts all the time and I find that those LEDS (even the good ones) are somewhere around 8-9K kelvin. So if you have mixed lighting...and you shoot at a low kelvin...the sensor just flips out and clips. So raising the K to get more in the ballpark of where the blue LED is naturally at smooths it out. i don't know for sure...but that is my guess. Not sure why its mostly just the blue channel though.
Would love to hear from someone who knows the exact technical reasoning.
Setting the white balance properly can fix the issue in HLG but not vlog. If you have mixed lighting and don't want to balance for the blues its not really an option though.
The odd thing is that its worse in Vlog than HLG, and worse in HLG compared to the flat profile.
The issue goes beyond LED lights because people have had it with odd things like blue shirts. I remember the A7S having terrible blue highlight clipping. Pretty unacceptable for a $4000 camera.
The odd thing is that its worse in Vlog than HLG, and worse in HLG compared to the flat profile.
The issue goes beyond LED lights because people have had it with odd things like blue shirts. I remember the A7S having terrible blue highlight clipping. Pretty unacceptable for a $4000 camera.
Can you post some links that clearly demonstrate that this is a Panasonic S1H problem ?
All I've been able to find is the standard blue LED problem that virtually every digital camera has, and it's always caused by LED lights that have a massive blue spike in their spectrum.
filmguy123
Veteran
This is why the article seemed odd to me. It points out weakness that are common to tons of cameras even at higher price points, or common sense physics:
- Low light, high ISO performance recording 180fps to H.264 meant he was disappointed with the noise
- Mixed lighting with BLUE LED lights meant he was concerned with how the camera handled color channel clipping
It's not that these aren't valid camera issues, it's that they are pointed out like unique S1H flaws that give him a very muted opinion on the camera - and I don't know anyone who expected the S1H to magically have super clean 180fps internal recording in general (especially at low light!), or solve the blue issue.
I didn't see anything in the article that raised flags. I would have thought these would have been throw away mentions more in the tone of "the camera is amazing, especially at $4k. There are some niggles - you still can't expect to shoot indoor 180fps footage under insufficient light and expect miracles, and the engineering doesn't advance long standing camera issues such as blue channel clipping in certain scenarios, but...".
Maybe there's more we're missing?
- Low light, high ISO performance recording 180fps to H.264 meant he was disappointed with the noise
- Mixed lighting with BLUE LED lights meant he was concerned with how the camera handled color channel clipping
It's not that these aren't valid camera issues, it's that they are pointed out like unique S1H flaws that give him a very muted opinion on the camera - and I don't know anyone who expected the S1H to magically have super clean 180fps internal recording in general (especially at low light!), or solve the blue issue.
I didn't see anything in the article that raised flags. I would have thought these would have been throw away mentions more in the tone of "the camera is amazing, especially at $4k. There are some niggles - you still can't expect to shoot indoor 180fps footage under insufficient light and expect miracles, and the engineering doesn't advance long standing camera issues such as blue channel clipping in certain scenarios, but...".
Maybe there's more we're missing?
Bassman2003
Veteran
I have always liked Matthew's input over the years. It read to me like he was a bit disappointed in the camera. Not that it should have been a RED but that it was kind of a let down for what it is supposed to be.
But, the camera is not final and he only had 90 minuted with it. Not the be all, end all but an honest assessment none the less.
But, the camera is not final and he only had 90 minuted with it. Not the be all, end all but an honest assessment none the less.