Panasonic S1H Announcement Tuesday, August 27th

Yeah, I don't know...there is just no way those cameras on your list are outselling the 4K and 6K.

(P.S. When you click around in the 'sort by' list, select another one first like 'Most Rated' or something and then go back to the 'Best Sellers'.)
 
NorBro said:
P.S. When you click around in the 'sort by' list, select another one first like 'Most Rated' or something and then go back to the 'Best Sellers'.
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Ok, doing this gave me the same list that you were getting, and it did not matter if I was logging in from Canada or the US. Good to know that the default best seller sorting may not be accurate.
 
Well, it's accurate if you manually refresh the list.

Currently, it's presented how it is for the reasons I mentioned on the last page.

If any money is involved (and I am not saying that is the case with B&H), a company can choose to have cameras appear on the landing page to provide them more advertising.

But if you refresh the list correctly, the system will provide the accurate results.

[It makes more sense if one understands how web development & marketing work together.]
 
I went off private browsing - UMP G2, S1H, E2, Pocket6K, Pocket4K, FX9, C200, E2C, A7SII, C100 MKII, GH-5S... and they go into various packages.

B&H is probably fairly representative of the higher end photo and low-medium pro market. Amazon ratings mean more to the consumer end. And who buys how many Alexas is only an approximation.
 
NorBro said:
If any money is involved (and I am not saying that is the case with B&H), a company can choose to have cameras appear on the landing page to provide them more advertising.
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Don't prevaricate. That's exactly what is going on. It's a business.......
 
Prevaricate? Word of the day. lol

It's obviously understood how business works, but I'm not going to say that's what someone is doing without having any information about the situation.
 
It's not false. Not sure what's difficult about understanding this. They are best-selling in their system (and their system only) when people place an order for the camera. If they cancel then that sale is lost and the list is adjusted, if applicable.

And mirrorless/DSLRs aren't included with the 'digital cine cameras' besides the usual cinema hybrids (GH5, a7SII, etc).

B&H has 'best-selling' lists for everything they sell. From clamps to cameras, from lights to gaffing tape, everything.
 
Yes but that doesn't mean they rig the list. And the same applies to Best Buy, Amazon, etc.
 
Cary Knoop said:
Regardless of what distributors and dealers want me to believe I use common sense: if it is hard to buy a camera and it sells for a premium on Ebay it means the camera is very popular and if a new camera is in stock and already has price cuts the sales are disappointing.

I think this whole L-mount experiment is firmly in the second category. I expect cuts or "specials" on the S1H shortly after it is released.
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I think what you are saying about product shortages and eBay scalpers is true at the lower end of the market but I don't think it applies as much with global giants like Panasonic. When companies like BMD, Red, and even Tesla are learning to manufacture at scale they invariably run into issues that keep them from being able delivery like their larger competitors.

In another life, I worked in electronics manufacturing with a large Japanese multinational and for many larger companies not meeting your manufacturing goals is kind of thing that will get an executive demoted or fired. There is simply no excuse for not meeting your numbers. Sure there may be some small hiccups but I'm pretty sure Panasonic will be able to make enough S1H to meet demand.

That isn't say that the S1H will sell as well as the BMD P6K which is priced to move. I think the P4K and P6K primarily exist as a way to speed the adoption of DaVinci Resolve as an editor and B-RAW as a format rather than delivering lots of profits. I think it's a brilliant strategy that will introduce a whole generation of filmmakers on their tools.
 
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The S1 already has a $300 price cut while the 4K and 6K Pockets can't move fast enough...that's what he's basically saying. (And that's how you know what's selling, especially if used units on eBay are moving just as fast.)

And I agree that the S1H will see one in the near future as well.
 
NorBro said:
The S1 already has a $300 price cut while the 4K and 6K Pockets can't move fast enough...that's what he's basically saying. (And that's how you know what's selling, especially if used units on eBay are moving just as fast.)

And I agree that the S1H will see one in the near future as well.
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Well to be fair I think both the pocket 4k and pocket 6k are priced lower relatively to what you get, especially when you consider the target buyers.
 
Well, yea...that's why they are selling.

People want very inexpensive cameras with an endless amount of specs.

YouTube hype really helps move cameras too.
 
NorBro said:
The S1 already has a $300 price cut while the 4K and 6K Pockets can't move fast enough...that's what he's basically saying. (And that's how you know what's selling, especially if used units on eBay are moving just as fast.)

And I agree that the S1H will see one in the near future as well.
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Yeah, I get the point, but I think it's an apples to oranges comparison. BMD has a completely different business model as an insurgent than Panasonic does as an established industry player.

For example five years ago the original Pocket Cinema Camera was already selling well when BMD temporarily reduced to price of to $500 dollars. It was obviously an effort to get that amazing little camera into as many hands as possible even it resulted in a reduction in profits. It was a winning strategy that I think continues to this day with their existing camera line. BMD also gives away a version of DaVinci Resolve for the same reason, marketshare, marketshare, marketshare.

Again I'm not doubting their sales rank, or the quality of their gear. The P4K may say orders of magnitude more units than the S1H. I'm just making the point that BMD have a very different business model from Panasonic, Canon, Sony, et al., making sales comparisons difficult. Many who bought the original Pocket Cinema camera for $500 were never going to buy a FS7. Some were willing to spend a couple of hundred buck above list price to buy the Pocket. The FS7 made Sony a fortune even though you could walk into any dealer's showroom to buy it at list price.

I don't think anyone will be surprised when Panasonic discounts the S1H but's part of the way they do business. Early adopters pay a premium and then the price drops.
 
I hear you. On a side note, it's also about the overall image quality.

IMO, 99% of people in this bracket purchase cameras for their look - and not for ergonomics or certain specs - and the Blackmagics simply provide a unique image that the Japanese cannot (at least right now).

$4K is not a terrible price for the S1H, which has to be the most feature-filled mirrorless that's currently available, but the Japanese - who are brilliant innovators - "compete" with each other and will not sell a full-frame 6K video machine for $2K-ish when the a7III is available for that price.

IMO, a lot of it is about pride too.

___

P.S. I bought a Pocket for $1600 in 2013.
 
Gary T said:
I don't think anyone will be surprised when Panasonic discounts the S1H but's part of the way they do business. Early adopters pay a premium and then the price drops.
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I think you are an optimist, this whole full-frame portable video camera idea may become a tremendous flop.

Unless Panasonic makes some future commitments to MFT, and not just trying to sell more mark II lenses, the first company who will provide a better MFT camera with IBIS, raw and USB-c recording capability will take it all away from them.
 
Gary T said:
Yeah, I get the point, but I think it's an apples to oranges comparison. BMD has a completely different business model as an insurgent than Panasonic does as an established industry player...
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A) You are correct.

B) You're underestimating the photo-video gear profit margins. As I had posted in the JinniTech vs. Red thread earlier today, a smartphone manufacturer's cost of production is ~ 35% of the retail price. And that's in a humongous and ultra competitive mobile business. The Japanese photo-video cartel has more pricing leverage and, based upon the publicly released financial statements, the cost here is likely around 30% of the retail. In other words, BMD ain't bleeding Red ... I mean, red.

PS. As once mentioned to me by an ex-buyer/manager, "I don't care what price you sell these boxes for. All I care about is the total profit per store. If you have to negotiate a discount in order to close a sale, then it's your decision as a salesperson. I choose not to interfere at this level". And, I think on some level, Petty knows that these are just boxes. You can make as many of them as you can sell.
 
Cary Knoop said:
...unless Panasonic makes some future commitments to MFT, and not just trying to sell more mark II lenses, the first company who will provide a better MFT camera with IBIS, raw and USB-c recording capability will take it all away from them.
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So what it sounds like you are saying is if BMD makes the PCC 4K with IBIS, they'll take it all away from Panasonic?
I don't agree, the entire industry and consumer demand is quickly moving away from M43. Not saying M43 is a dead issue,
it's not, but it will die a long, slow death as there are plenty of satisfied GH5, PCC 4K and and ZCam E2 owners out there but M43
is far from cutting edge in the era of FF madness.
 
DLD said:
A) You are correct.

B) You're underestimating the photo-video gear profit margins. As I had posted in the JinniTech vs. Red thread earlier today, a smartphone manufacturer's cost of production is ~ 35% of the retail price. And that's in a humongous and ultra competitive mobile business. The Japanese photo-video cartel has more pricing leverage and, based upon the publicly released financial statements, the cost here is likely around 30% of the retail. In other words, BMD ain't bleeding Red ... I mean, red.

PS. As once mentioned to me by an ex-buyer/manager, "I don't care what price you sell these boxes for. All I care about is the total profit per store. If you have to negotiate a discount in order to close a sale, then it's your decision as a salesperson. I choose not to interfere at this level". And, I think on some level, Petty knows that these are just boxes. You can make as many of them as you can sell.
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It sounds like you are guessing with your Panasonic/Sony/Canon profit margin calculation but even if you are right I don't see how those numbers would help you establish BMD's margins.

I never said the P4K, P6K were being sold at a loss, rather I believe they are being sold for a lower price to gain market share. This is a strategy BMD has obviously embraced since they give away a free version DaVinci Resolve far more capable than the one that sold for tens of thousand of dollars before they bought the company.

And to be clear I'm not disparaging BMD. I am all about bringing new features and functionality at a lower price points as long as it's sustainable. I think they are killing it and I hope they have developers working night and day on autofocus for the next generation of their cameras.
 
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