Panasonic Removable Lens Four Thirds HD AVCHD Camera

squig said:
If they want to target high end camcorder users why give it a crappier codec? Surely it's capable of 24Mbps.
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I think that it could be to protect the higher end cameras like the HMC150 and HPX170. Eventually they'll give us better codec support and other improvements, but for now why give us more when they've already given us manual control, an audio jack, minimal to no jello, a nice flip-out LCD, etc... all things that are big improvements over the D90 and the 5Dmk2?

In a year they'll probably have a GH2 with all kinds of improvements, one of which will most likely be 24mbps AVC-HD. There won't be many incentives for consumers to buy next year's model if they make this year's one too good.
 
The camera companies develop new technologies and position them at the higher level so they can be marketed as the product the high end pros must have to be up to the minute and that is what Panasonic is doing at the moment with the new AVCUltra by example, and that is perfectly good for the business. What Ultra will do is replace Intra at the higher end and then Intra will come to the new generation of GH1s as a standard for that market. What we need to do is embrace whats coming out now and do the best we can with it. The future will only bring better cameras and we will be ready for them.
 
I think the odds are much higher that there's a technical reason behind the 17Mbps limitation, even if its a silly one-- like thier perception of the limits of SDHC cards in consumer hands, or a particular component in this camera maxing out at 17Mbps-- then them trying to protect their camcorder or professional division.

If they were thinking protectionist like that, they would never have made this camera in the first place.

Its easy to assume that there's some conspiracy to deny us what we *assume* we need, when its more likely that they have delivered us the state of the art for this device at this time. Just because some other camera does 24Mbps, doesn't mean that doing so in this camera wouldn't have involved compromising a feature we would have been much more upset to lose.
 
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DavidNJ said:
Barry, 24Mb/s is purely arbitrary.
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No, it isn't. The choice of AVCHD was made to ensure compatibility with all NLEs, to make it play back on blu-ray players or PS3 decks, etc. It is AVCHD compliant, and AVCHD is limited to 24mbps.

Nobody will ever disagree that more mbps = more quality (assuming the same codec, of course). But there are reasons these things were chosen the way they were.
 
squig said:
If panny give us a GH1-PRO they might as well give us a decent pro codec. I for one would pay another $1000 for 50-100Mbps. Bugger the XLRs
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50-100mbps of what though?

These numbers discussions drive me completely batty because seriously, I doubt less than 1% of the readers have any true understanding of what the numbers relate to. We just got a huge clue as to why the GH1's codec may not be holding up as well in 1080/24p mode vs. 720/60p mode; that interview, the guy said that the camcorders have better compression because they can utilize B frames. That's pretty big. 17mbps of 1080/24p, utilizing a robust implementation of AVCHD, should look outstanding. If they have limited processing power and are therefore only producing a limited subset of what could be handled by not using bidirectional frame encoding, that's far more likely an upgrade path than adding lots of additional mbps that would push it into a proprietary nonstandard format.

I'd like to see 1080/24pN implemented using at least the HMC150's codec chip. I really doubt anyone would complain about the image quality or demand too many more mbps after that.
 
John Caballero said:
That would be the AVCINTRA codec and it requires much more horsepower and different circuitry and stuff.
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Well, yes and no. AVCHD is more computationally intensive. But AVC-Intra is a small-volume product, and the boards and circuitry are huge, compared to a little AVCHD chip which is manufactured and sold in the millions.

It will take a while in the GH1 camera format for that.
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I would say it's going to be at least a year or two. The smallest AVC-Intra device on the market is the HPG20, which is probably 10x (or more) the dimensional volume of a GH1.

Barry, is it achievable to have 1080i24PA in this camera? That may be a little better?
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1080/24pA would have been better, yes, because progressive encoding is always more efficient than interlaced encoding, so you'd have four progressive frames + 1 interlace (in 24pA) versus 3 progressive + 2 interlaced (as is now).

However, the big companies seem to firmly believe that consumer products get 24p-over-60i, and only the broadcast lines get 24pA. So I don't expect any 24pA in any future version of the GH1, unless the broadcast division buys it and implements its own changes.
 
Why would there be such a difference in COLOR between the GH1 w/ kit lens at 50mm f5.5 and the GH1 w/ Nikkor AIS 50mm f2???
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I myself love the color on the kits lens footage. Panasonic says it developed the lens specifically to work together with the motion picture capabilities of this camera. I am 100% sure that Panasonic wants this camera to succeed as a motion capture camera and that its lenses are of the best quality they can provide for it. This kit lens takes advantage of all the automated features that the camera has to offer so why insist on using lenses that might be a tad "faster" but that negate all the great functionality of the kits lens and the camera as a team? It makes absolutely no sense to me.
 
John Caballero said:
I myself love the color on the kits lens footage. Panasonic says it developed the lens specifically to work together with the motion picture capabilities of this camera. I am 100% sure that Panasonic wants this camera to succeed as a motion capture camera and that its lenses are of the best quality they can provide for it. This kit lens takes advantage of all the automated features that the camera has to offer so why insist on using lenses that might be a tad "faster" but that negate all the great functionality of the kits lens and the camera as a team? It makes absolutely no sense to me.
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Interesting. So, the Panasonic 25mm f1.4 Lecia won't work with the "motion picture capabilites" of the GH1? It'll work, of course, but it wasn't built specifically for the GH1, right?

Same goes for the other Panasonic 4/3rd's?
 
squig said:
If they want to target high end camcorder users why give it a crappier codec? Surely it's capable of 24Mbps.
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I don't think they are targeting high-end camcorder users...
This is an ad Panasonic is currently running in Japanese magazines (this is a scan I took from the may issue of Nihon Camera- one of Japan's most prestigious photography magazines)

As you can see, the GH-1 is superimposed over what looks to be like one of the HDC camcorders- Panasonic camcorders like the HDC-HS300K that are in the price-range of the GH1 are all 17Mbps. The GH1 is not superimposed over a HMC150 or a HPX170. And on the opposite page there are models posing with the camera dressed up like vacationing Japanese housewives.

Unfortunately, Panasonic doesn't view the GH1 as a pro tool, rather a prosumer product. It doesn't mean you can't get good results from it, and more importantly depending on the demand we may get a higher-end product. This is Panasonic's first foray into m4/3rds video-capable camera, and it's a positive first step, and we can confidently assume there will be more in the future. I'm sure we'll see higher-end Panasonic products as well. Maybe a camera that costs $500 more then the GH1 but has all the killer-features (and that is sold body-only).


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I hear you Steve. But when I see a Panasonic Rep make this comment (as quoted from earlier)

Q: So who is the target user for this camera, as distinct from high end camcorders - and also as distinct from the target market for the G1?
A: High end camcorder users are one of the big targets. Also video journalists and maybe broadcasting companies.

I'd say someone is sending mixed messages.
 
Interesting. So, the Panasonic 25mm f1.4 Lecia won't work with the "motion picture capabilites" of the GH1? It'll work, of course, but it wasn't built specifically for the GH1, right?

Same goes for the other Panasonic 4/3rd's?
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I don't now for sure. In the promo web pages for the camera Panasonic says that some features won't work with certain lenses. I am sure they were talking basically about their lenses like maybe the ones you mention or the Olympus 4/3s. I was refering to Nikon or Canon manual lenses than in addition have a 2x factor, making a 50mm into a 100mm by example.
 
I'd rather see this camera sold to a million japanese housewives who are high end camcorder users (high end just means "have money") than only to 10,000 indie filmmakers.

This will result in follow on products, and while we can upgrade our camera bodies as need be, the investment in lenses would be preserved, and a million high end consumers will assure the continuation of the format.
 
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That is precisely what Panasonic is doing, maximizing return on their investment. The whole world of imaging is turning HD and high end digital. From cameras to television to anything else that produces images. These new cameras are aimed at the public in general that want more imaging quality from the new products. Indie filmmakers are just benefiting from that change in general.
 
Finster said:
Interesting. So, the Panasonic 25mm f1.4 Lecia won't work with the "motion picture capabilites" of the GH1? It'll work, of course, but it wasn't built specifically for the GH1, right?

Same goes for the other Panasonic 4/3rd's?
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Currently only the 14-140mm"HD" lens was designed for video. And only that lens will do AF in video and has silent focusing, etc. The Leica D 25mm f.1.4 will have AF for stills, but not for video. A lot of the fancy features of the GH1 are tied to the 14-140mm HD lens, which is why they have it bundled with the camera.
 
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