Park Edwards
Veteran
Canada supposedly getting a late May release. That can speed things up for those who speak english. I'm not gonna jump the gun until a body only hits the sales floor. Which I hope happens rather sooner than later.
Panasonic Removable Lens Four Thirds HD AVCHD Camera
- Thread starter DavidNJ
- Start date
I thought the same. Ive got a bunch of fast Nikon primes I'd love to use with this camera but after trying it out, face recognition and lightning speed autofocus even on movie mode I'm tempted to get the lens too. Third party lenses would lose these features.
You could get some great candid street shots with this camera and lens.
squig
Veteran
The G1 body never hit the floor so I don't like your chances. From what I've seen so far I'd pay the going price just for the body alone. The kit lens is just a bonus that will come in very handy for steadicam and car mount work. For everything else it's fast primes.
The D90 forum is like a ghost town
The D90 forum is like a ghost town
Uwe Lansing
Veteran
Haha... yeah, but wait 1 or 2 months when the D400 get announced. For me there are still some pending questions, perhaps some drawbacks. In a nutshell:
- how you can hold steady this tiny little thing
- how can you handle it in general
- I don´t like adapter procedures
- with third party lenses you´ll lose AF abilities
- only 1 lens (zoom) with AF (a quiet one of course)
- it´s not a Nikon
- 24p in 60i is holy shi*
- 3:2 pulldown in post "drives me bananas"
- the native 1080 footage isn´t easy to edit - especially when you use some color grading and effects (AE) - 720p mjpeg is possibly the best way to go
- aliasing + stair steps?
............................ etc.
..... so lets wait for the progress reports of some experienced user here.
For sure, there are pretty much benefits compared to the D90. But maybe Nikon gonna make it right. If not, count me in.
PaPa
Major Contributor
i too am very excited to see what this GH1 has to offer in the hands of you guys. I'm sure you will be able to make it shine. But right now, regardless of the softness that he D90 delivers, nothing beats the way it handles hilights. Once you solve the stair stepping, and if some of these jello removal programs work, may still be a good contender to the GH1.
and ya, the D400 is just around the corner, may bring great things!
and ya, the D400 is just around the corner, may bring great things!
DavidNJ
Carbonite Member
I'm pretty sure the PAL version will have 1/50. In nearly every aspect this camera is as if some had designed the 5DM2 right. Manual control. High res EVF and screen. Full manual controls. Auto focus and exposure control for video. Less expensive and less bulky high quality lenses (and more expensive ones also!).
This thread is about 1/2 of the other problem. One that if it had the feature would work with the existing hardware. I learned over the weekend that some cameras don't output the 1080p as PsF, but rather as native 1080p. In turns out the popular Intensity card doesn't seen to support that...or at least the Blackmagic and Cineform tools don't support that. However, the GH1 supports 1080p24 as a 2:3 pulldown, so if it has it, it should work.
This thread is about 1/2 of the other problem. One that if it had the feature would work with the existing hardware. I learned over the weekend that some cameras don't output the 1080p as PsF, but rather as native 1080p. In turns out the popular Intensity card doesn't seen to support that...or at least the Blackmagic and Cineform tools don't support that. However, the GH1 supports 1080p24 as a 2:3 pulldown, so if it has it, it should work.
RaviSun3D
Well-known member
Here are some of the basic reasons for this "collecting dust" fact. (applies to everything that's similar)
I am just comparing three Basic Markets.
So... Don't take'em personally...
We all already know this, just thought it'd be interesting.
This, goes like this...
Generally DSLRs are more concentrated for Prosumers & Professionals and not for Consumers.
Consumers - are more related to Point & Shoot (Cybershot type) cameras.
And for videos, there are various under $500 HD cameras available, which can even Click the Stills.
So, no reason for them to jump on GH1. This may become huge deal for them.
Prosumers - usually remain busy in their day2day work, and most of them are not connected with such 'Very NEW' (not yet in market) things. Often they decide to buy a Product either by Influence of their Pro-Chain (one photographer or videographer tells another what to buy) or by reading the online reviews or (I believe) just walk in a store and test the cameras newly available there and buy what they think is good for their business. So, here the GH1 is not in their way (even in Japan) yet, it may will be after reviews on the web. They look for it 1 or 2 months after Release.
Professionals - Are very specific and detailed in their requirements. We are the "features" hungry people. We always see positives and negatives with our own Cinematic views. We don't like Colourfull / Flavoured advertisements of a product, because we look at it very technically. We often stuck on one point or another, as we always expect much much more than the Manufacturer can actually deliver. We jump on the forums long way before the product release and make discussions and arguments on something that is not yet perfectly known to anyone.
As for the GH1, most of us are in stage of, "You buy it, and I will get known from you (if it meets my requirements)
and then I will decide weather to buy it or not."
And anyways, we are already stuck on too many points of GH1 which are yet to be confirmed. And its not even available for us...
Like kubalsky said, "its sitting on the shelf.....collecting dust"
Well, it is no surprise if it has to sit another 2 months on shelf in tokyo. :happy:
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To our friends in Tokyo who may be watching these boards, can we get some 60P slowmo footage please? 
RE: Body Only
IF you want the GH1 body only you could likely sell the kit lens on a G1 oriented forum to one of the many fans of the G1. A lot of them are not interested in video but are really interested in that lens.
RE: AVCHD and HDMI Out
IF they don't do live HDMI out, then what is the point of recording 24p in a 60i stream? AVCHD allows 24p natively... so if you've already committed to make your camera AVCHD why add the unnecessary need for pulldown? Just so you can burn a blueray disk directly?
I think BlueRay is the bane of my existence and it needs to die.
AVCHD is a pointless specification that simply limits the kinds of MPEG4 standard video to particular bitrates and formats, and then shoves it into an MPEG2 transport stream.
For cameras that record to flash or hard drives it adds absolutely nothing. But the stupid manufacturers keep imposing it on us for no good reason, making consumers less likely to ever edit their video, making hobbiests pull their hair out, and pissing me off but good.
Maybe Apple will (once again) come to my rescue and put native AVCHD support in the next OS X. Its stupid that they would have to do that when the MPEG4 standard has been around for a very long time, but these manufacturers don't seem to be listening to reason when it comes to that.
I guarantee you that AVCHD will be a dead "format" in 10 years, and I bet good money that what replaces it will be straight MPEG4 or possibly the current equivalent. And this period will be looked upon as the dark years, where to try and keep blueray relevant, the manufacturers made us all suffer.
IF you want the GH1 body only you could likely sell the kit lens on a G1 oriented forum to one of the many fans of the G1. A lot of them are not interested in video but are really interested in that lens.
RE: AVCHD and HDMI Out
IF they don't do live HDMI out, then what is the point of recording 24p in a 60i stream? AVCHD allows 24p natively... so if you've already committed to make your camera AVCHD why add the unnecessary need for pulldown? Just so you can burn a blueray disk directly?
I think BlueRay is the bane of my existence and it needs to die.
AVCHD is a pointless specification that simply limits the kinds of MPEG4 standard video to particular bitrates and formats, and then shoves it into an MPEG2 transport stream.
For cameras that record to flash or hard drives it adds absolutely nothing. But the stupid manufacturers keep imposing it on us for no good reason, making consumers less likely to ever edit their video, making hobbiests pull their hair out, and pissing me off but good.
Maybe Apple will (once again) come to my rescue and put native AVCHD support in the next OS X. Its stupid that they would have to do that when the MPEG4 standard has been around for a very long time, but these manufacturers don't seem to be listening to reason when it comes to that.
I guarantee you that AVCHD will be a dead "format" in 10 years, and I bet good money that what replaces it will be straight MPEG4 or possibly the current equivalent. And this period will be looked upon as the dark years, where to try and keep blueray relevant, the manufacturers made us all suffer.
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Eddy Robinson
Well-known member
For the widest possible TV via HDMI compatibility, I think. It's not such a bad thing, nor much extra work for your computer. The video is stored like this...
Frame 1: RGBRGBRGBRGB[...]
Frame 2: RGBRGBRGBRGB[...]
Frame 3: RGBRGBRGBRGB[...]
Frame 4: RGBRGBRGBRGB[...]
Frame 5: RGBRGBRGBRGB[...]
(that's not the AVCHD scheme, mind, but the results of decoding it...)
Then the pulldown is just like:
Video1: F1 F1 F2 F2 F2 F3 F3 F4 F4 F4 [...]
In other words the camera isn't storing 60 frames with some being duplicated and the need to re-compress them etc. etc., it's just storing 24 Frames of AVCHD and then wrapping them up in a 60p envelope which contains only references to each of those 24p frames. So to do pulldown you just open the '60p' file, ignore the wrapper information, and extract only the 24p stream as 2:3 or 2:3:3:2, whichever pulldown scheme they use.
Au contraire. You need some kind of standard for compressing HD films onto a disc, and (happily) the market has decided that blu-ray is the best one (which it is; HD-DVD is like vhs to blu-ray's betamax, and Sony wins this time around). Well, the result is that lots of TV and now, more and more video cards are already optimized for decoding AVCHD in hardware. If you don't have such a video card, you can always transcode out of it although it'll be slow.
Um yeah. whatever. I think people said the same thing about DVD and MPEG-4. It's going to be some time before Blu-Ray is replaced, because how else are you going to distribute a >30gb movie file + extras? The discs hold up to 50gb. That's not so much in computer terms, but nobody is going to want to download files of that size (certainly not in the US with our lame broadband) and I don't see films being distributed on USB sticks any time soon either.
Really, I think you would have a hard time recording uncompressed HDMI without making the camera an awful lot more expensive. The compression ratio on the GH1 has limitations, but it makes sense to use a widely available compression format as the decoding hardware will become ubiquitous.
Eddy Robinson
Well-known member
Jeez you guys, you wouldn't last a week in the pro world with this attitude. Footage not in the right format? Then set up a workflow where you upload, copy, transcode and then edit in your preferred format.
Most video transcoding software will let you save presets and handle batch jobs. Automating the ingest process and having it spit out a version optimised for your editing needs is not hard. You only need to do it one time. So it may take a few hours - how long does it take to develop and print film, then telecine it to video? If your computer doesn't have native AVCHD support (and many more will as time goes by because people want to play back movies on their computers) just move it to a format you prefer, as long as you have the disk space/speed for the larger file size.
Peter J. DeCrescenzo
Veteran
[Salvo & I were thinking the same thing at the same time ...]
Another test request for our friends who are lucky enough to have a GH1 already (or soon will):
If you have an empty 8GB or larger capacity SDHC class 6 memory card (a SDHC class 4 card _might_ work), can you do a simple test (nothing fancy):
Make sure the GH1 battery is fully charged or power the cam with the AC adapter. Put the GH1 in its highest-quality full-HD 1920 x 1080 AVCHD mode and press the cam's record button, and keep the cam recording for as long as possible without stopping (shoot one long continuous take).
How long a continuous full-HD AVCHD recording does your GH1 allow? Can your GH1 record full-HD for 30 or more minutes continuously in one take? What's the maximum time length your GH1 can record full-HD?
For some productions (e.g.: events, performances, etc.), long takes can be a requirement.
Panasonic's docs are unclear on this point (for example, see the footnote all the way at the bottom of this document):
http://panasonic.net/avc/lumix/popup/sd_memory_card/gh1.html
Another, related test: Approx. how short a gap (time-wise) between "takes" is possible if you start a full-HD recording, then stop recording, and then start a new full-HD recording immediately? In other words, how "gapless" can multiple full-HD takes be? And is the gap any shorter if the GH1 is recording in its highest-quality M-JPEG mode vs. its highest-quality AVCHD mode?
Please understand that by asking these questions I'm not knocking the GH1; I'd just like to know the answers.
Hey Kholi, is it 3pm PST yet? :happy:
- Peter
www.peterdv.com
Another test request for our friends who are lucky enough to have a GH1 already (or soon will):
If you have an empty 8GB or larger capacity SDHC class 6 memory card (a SDHC class 4 card _might_ work), can you do a simple test (nothing fancy):
Make sure the GH1 battery is fully charged or power the cam with the AC adapter. Put the GH1 in its highest-quality full-HD 1920 x 1080 AVCHD mode and press the cam's record button, and keep the cam recording for as long as possible without stopping (shoot one long continuous take).
How long a continuous full-HD AVCHD recording does your GH1 allow? Can your GH1 record full-HD for 30 or more minutes continuously in one take? What's the maximum time length your GH1 can record full-HD?
For some productions (e.g.: events, performances, etc.), long takes can be a requirement.
Panasonic's docs are unclear on this point (for example, see the footnote all the way at the bottom of this document):
http://panasonic.net/avc/lumix/popup/sd_memory_card/gh1.html
Another, related test: Approx. how short a gap (time-wise) between "takes" is possible if you start a full-HD recording, then stop recording, and then start a new full-HD recording immediately? In other words, how "gapless" can multiple full-HD takes be? And is the gap any shorter if the GH1 is recording in its highest-quality M-JPEG mode vs. its highest-quality AVCHD mode?
Please understand that by asking these questions I'm not knocking the GH1; I'd just like to know the answers.
Hey Kholi, is it 3pm PST yet? :happy:
- Peter
www.peterdv.com
Ian-T
Veteran
I do recall this being answered already back when the non-prouction model was being shown.... but it is "not-limited"...so said the Panasonic sales rep in one of those videos. I believe he also assured us by saying "we will not make the same mistakes"...referring to the competitors (Nikon, Canon).
Uwe Lansing
Veteran
I took a closer look at this nightshot comparison:
http://www.vimeo.com/4354393
That isn´t really complimentary imho. The XR520V has a 1/2.88 sensor, the gh1 a much bigger MFT. So, look at the details in the background - they crushed in black almost totally. I don´t know which glass he used - most likely the kit zoom.
http://www.vimeo.com/4354393
That isn´t really complimentary imho. The XR520V has a 1/2.88 sensor, the gh1 a much bigger MFT. So, look at the details in the background - they crushed in black almost totally. I don´t know which glass he used - most likely the kit zoom.
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Park Edwards
Veteran
Yes, the G1 body did hit the floor.
Uwe Lansing
Veteran
Sure, you can transcode the material to an intermediate codec like the CanopusHQ (Edius) or others - depends on the NLE you work with. But it takes time. And if you work with a real huge project - it´s gonna take a lot of time...
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AVCHD is not a video codec that anything can be optimized to decode. It is a standard that puts H.264 video into an MPEG2 transport stream. The MPEG4 standard (of which H.264 video is a part) already specifies the video codec, and has a file format that wold be just fine. The only "Advantage" of AVCHD is that its proprietary, rather than an open standard like MPEG4.
Any TV or video card which is "optimized for decoding" H.264 can decode it coming out of an MPEG4 file format or an MPEG2 transport stream.
Again, AVCHD is not a codec. The best workflow for using into Computers would be to pull it out of the MPEG2 transport stream and repackage it in a standard MPEG4 file. This would require not lose of quality as there is no transcoding necessary.
I understand that Roxio Toast does this, but I haven't confirmed. My last camera shot straight MPEG4 files because I had had enough of dealing with AVCHD.
What, you don't realize that AVCHD is MPEG4/H.264 video already?
You aren't because people don't want that, they don't care. They will just download the HD movie from iTunes. This is why BlueRay is not going to last very long.
Yes, and that format, the most standardized, widest available, and supported is H.264 video in an MPEG4 file format. Anyone who ships a product with AVCHD has to already be a licensor of MPEG4, so why not use the standard format that allows whatever bitrate you want?
Why force yourself to choose 17Mbps or 24Mbps, when 22Mbps might be ideal?
I'm not arguing against compression on the GH1, as you assume, I'm simply pointing out that AVCHD ads absolutely nothing technologically to the situation, other than a lot of hassle for end users.
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