The specs are markedly absent total-pixel vs effective-pixel information, which I took to mean that it may well be. Does it make a difference though (aside from indicating a possibly overly optimistic bet on the size of the market)? Maybe it explains why it's being used on three different camera setups?
Panasonic HC-X1 4K 60p camcorder
- Thread starter joe1946
- Start date
The specs are markedly absent total-pixel vs effective-pixel information, which I took to mean that it may well be. Does it make a difference though (aside from indicating a possibly overly optimistic bet on the size of the market)? Maybe it explains why it's being used on three different camera setups?
The UX180 also has WFM according to the spec list at the end of the UX180 video. Not sure if the HC-X1 has WFM.
EDIT: Just checked and the HC-X1 does have waveform and vectorscope !!! So the only difference appears to be HD-SDI and Timecode connectors.
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Will be interested to find if the HDMI UHD60P is 4:2:2 as the HC-X1 with an ATOMOS Shogun Inferno would be a very cost effective combination. Will not be able to record internally this way but could get all the recording needed externally. May be a better use of the cost difference to the UX-180 ?
I was just wondering if the HDMI output while in standby is different. The recorded file is 4:2:0 for HD as well I think but maybe for HD could be 4:2:2 on the HDMI. Also not clear is if UHD60P actually appears on HDMI in standby and switches to HD while recording or is always HD when UHD60P is selected.
Despite the odd conversation I had with the Panasonic rep concerning 10 bit 4:2:2 output, the DVX-200 spec states "*Output of UHD/59.94p/50.00p becomes 8 bit 4:2:0" and that however unlikely the HC-X1 has a technical leg-up on the UX180, it is that much more unlikely that it has a leg-up on the DVX-200.
ed: beat me by seconds
It doesn't seem likely that standby is different given the wording, but perhaps someone with a 200 could confirm?Fortunately, if I understand your interest well enough, I expect we're both going to be more interested in the low-light noise floor, resolving limits, and dynamic range of the cameras. I confess to a passing interest in the TC, but in the end I suspect that I too will find better uses for the $800 involved.
Yes low noise and lowlight performance UHD60P is what is interesting to me. It would be nice to get UHD60P out of the HDMI even 4:2:0 in standby as from reading specs this is certainly just HD when recording. Recording UHD60P to an ATOMOS Inferno to ProRes at a higher bit rate than 150Mpbs would be good. HD-SDI is of no interest because it is only HD and timecode is of interest but not a deal breaker. So at the moment the HC-X1 looks more attractive unless there are some other differences we do not know yet. If it is only SDI and time code connectors I think the price difference for me would favor the HC-X1.
john deaver
Well-known member
Looks like the HC-X1 is also lighter as well (4.4 lbs as opposed to 6lbs)
Also doesn't the DVX200 crop down its 4/3 sensor in 4K mode just like the GH4? If so doesn't that make it close to a 1 inch sensor anyway?
Also doesn't the DVX200 crop down its 4/3 sensor in 4K mode just like the GH4? If so doesn't that make it close to a 1 inch sensor anyway?
Yes, the specs say "Outputs images up to 4K/24p and UHD 60p/50p.** Images output during UHD 60p/50p recording are FHD", so, it seems that output is possible, but not while recording. The only other possible way I can read that is 60p output is only available during playback, and that seems silly. Recording is also not available on the 200 when outputting 10bit, so, it seems like there's resource contention between output and recording.
Agreed. And then B&H dropped their UX180 price....
At the moment I'm likely to get whichever is available :shrug:
Barry_Green
Moderator
That's how the DVX200 works. When in UHD 60/50p, the HDMI output is full UHD 60p (or 50p), at 8-bit 4:2:0, and can be recorded on an external recorder. However, when you go to record internally, the system can't support both an internal recording at UHD/60p and an external output at UHD/60p, so it drops the output to FHD while the recording is in process. Once you stop recording, it switches back to UHD output.
I don't know how similar the UX180/UX90/HC-X1 are to the DVX200, but a lot of things sound similar, so it would be reasonable to interpret it such that the UX180 will act the same as the DVX200 in this regard, since the wording in the specs sounds exactly like what the DVX200 does.
There's a new 4K/60p demo online now: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENmMhmlnwaI
Detail looks great, colors are actually very decent - but holy cow, it looks like it only holds about 5 stops of dynamic range. Don't watch the wedding scene unless you want to burn your retinas.
Detail looks great, colors are actually very decent - but holy cow, it looks like it only holds about 5 stops of dynamic range. Don't watch the wedding scene unless you want to burn your retinas.
Angry Leprechaun
Well-known member
The company I work for just got their HC-X1 the other day. I haven't played with it much but the dynamic range actually isn't that bad. Definitely not log, but it holds the highlights pretty well. Granted the camera they were using before was the HVX-200 so it definitely blows that out of the water, but even compared to the 1080p Varicams it has a pretty nice DR.
One issue we have found though is there seems to be a serious lag between what's being recorded and what's showing up on the monitor and the viewfinder. It's definitely an issue when recording audio. I'd say it's just about as bad as monitoring the Osmo through wifi, even though it's the built in monitor and EVF. Is this common for the 4K Panasonic fixed lens cameras or do you think this might be an issue to send to Panasonic? Like I said I haven't used it enough to see how workable it is but just testing it was definitely noticeable.
One issue we have found though is there seems to be a serious lag between what's being recorded and what's showing up on the monitor and the viewfinder. It's definitely an issue when recording audio. I'd say it's just about as bad as monitoring the Osmo through wifi, even though it's the built in monitor and EVF. Is this common for the 4K Panasonic fixed lens cameras or do you think this might be an issue to send to Panasonic? Like I said I haven't used it enough to see how workable it is but just testing it was definitely noticeable.
Harry Pallenberg
Well-known member
Don't think you can do anything about the video lots of processing before it is on the LCD, but on page 190 in the manual you can set the audio to be a live sound or processed in sync with the video to make it easier to monitor when recording a live event.
Angry Leprechaun
Well-known member
So you're saying I can pick between listening to the sound live but it'll be out of sync with the LCD or I can listen to it delayed along with the LCD?
That doesn't seem right...processing or not I've never had a camera with that much delay. I mean it'll be a full word out of sync when I'm monitoring. I've used the Sony mirrorless cameras with a shogun, Canons with external monitors, and Reds and I've never had a problem with monitoring.
That doesn't seem right...processing or not I've never had a camera with that much delay. I mean it'll be a full word out of sync when I'm monitoring. I've used the Sony mirrorless cameras with a shogun, Canons with external monitors, and Reds and I've never had a problem with monitoring.
Barry_Green
Moderator
Sigh. This is how rumors get started.
The UX180's actual, observable dynamic range is 11.5 stops. The most dynamic range is achieved when using the FILMLIKE3 or CINELIKE-D gamma. Here's an actual shot I took of the UX180 in FILMLIKE3 on a professional dynamic range test chart.
The least dynamic range I observed is in HD gamma, which is still 10+ stops.
Barry_Green
Moderator
The LIVE option is to avoid echo in the headphones. The RECORDING option is to match the output.
There is some lag, yes. It takes a little while to route the video through all the processing and then to the outputs. If you listen to the headphones in RECORDING mode, it'll delay the headphone audio to match the video, but then you'll hear a distinct echo between the live spoken words and the headphone delayed words, which can cause a noticeable and distracting echo. So I always put the headphones in LIVE, to avoid that.
As far as delay on the LCD, it's about 3.5 frames. I set up a timecode generator on my phone, and filmed it through the UX180, and then took still frames of both the camera's LCD and the phone's display, and it showed a consistent 3 to 4 frame discrepancy between them.
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3 frames is enough to notice a lip sync error, yes. So 3-4 frames, you probably would have been seeing video out of sync with the audio if you were viewing with LIVE set on the headphones. You can choose RECORDING; the only issue is whether you'll hear the echo or not. If you have headphones that do a great job at sealing out outside noise, then RECORDING may be the ideal choice in that situation.
Oh, Barry.
I was hoping it would be obvious that my comment was a gross over-exaggeration. As I said, the camera looks very sharp and I think the colors are nice. Noise looks well tempered, too, though it's worth noting the lens is f/4.5 so extra gain will likely be necessary in some situations. That said, It's much more appealing to me than the DVX200 which doesn't have enough focal length range for event work and doesn't have a big enough sensor for cinema work. The UX180 (HC-X1) is actually everything I had hoped the DVX would be, so I'm actually very stoked we have this as an option. I don't care much for the Sony offerings in this class and Canon STILL hasn't released a 4K run-and-gun camera yet. That said, I do think highlight rolloff is not the 180's strong suit - nearly every video I've seen (and I've watched a lot) shows harsh clipping and latitude that, to my eye, looks fairly restricted.