GH5 Panasonic GH5S Press Announcement

[joe12south]

Saying 240fps is "useless" because it is soft and cropped is asinine. A lot of cameras have equal or worse hfs images at lower frame rates and pros have found ways to effectively use them. Is it a Phantom? No. Are there scenarios in which this mode will be useful? Absolutely.

You'll have to trade detail for speed. When you need the former, you've got 4K/60, when you need the latter, you've got 1080/240. Glad to have it.

 

[TheDingo]

Two different sensors are going to have two different color responses.

Also 14-bit color read-out versus 12-bit read-out. From basic tests shown yesterday it looks like the GH5s has slightly better color, which might be the result of the 14-bit sensor read-out.

 

[Shirozina]

Good luck waiting for something that even the rumor sites don't see coming anytime soon.

It is OK to about ISO12800 then the sparkling noise kicks in. That camera (i have one) is shockingly bad in FF mode at high ISOs, and cropping means no wide angles.

What they say is it is more flexible. For situations where a wider DOF is needed, it does have a 2 stop advantage. For situations where it is not needed, a .64x speedbooster can be used, or a .71x speedbooster with an F1.8 zoom.

But now there is a camera with 10 bit video that is as clean as the A7S at ISO12800 and ISO25600 before a speedbooster or before getting the 2 stop advantage for DoF.

And according to Sony's site while they do have a 4/3rds "STARVIS" sensor, they do not yet have one for FF. We don't know when or if there ever be one.

But here is what I think is most important. We've hit the "great enough" limit. A GH5s with an F/0.95 prime or a speed booster and an F/1.8 zoom is going to be able to shoot good 10-bit video in virtually total darkness. It will be able to shoot in indoors 240FPS video with a 1/450th of second shutter speed. That is more than enough for me.

An A7s3 is very likley following the A7r3 - same model progress as before and I can wait. I have a speedbooster to use wide glass in crop mode on the A7r2- non issue. M43 sensors are not more flexible - you need speedboosters and exotic glass to get shallow DOF something you can do with ease on Full frame or S35 sensor system.

 

[Thomas Smet]

Lots of talk about the lack of IBIS being the deal breaker. Guess I don't really get it. It is a nice tool to have but I have shot run&gun for decades with ENG cameras and support systems for smaller form factor cameras and never had an issue. Stabilization is one of those things we can address. Low light is not. Well not always. While I am a firm believer in light anything and everything I do know there are some circumstances that just cannot be lit.

To be what makes the GH5s appealing for run&gun is the fact that it can get great results with just about any lens. Even the 14-140 suddenly is useful again on the GH5s due to how good the ISO3200 is. Thats like shooting with a f2.8 zoom at ISO800 on the GH5 (assuming you keep the 14-140 at 5.6 the entire time). I personally find that a lot more advantageous to run&gun and casual shooting then IBIS. To each their own I guess. My point is we can do something about keeping the camera sturdy. We can only do so much with lenses and lighting.

For me however the big potential deal breaker could be the low resolutions stills on the GH5s. I use my GH4 for video and stills and the prospect of going backwards and only shooting 10mp stills is more or less a no go. I don't really want to haul two bodies around either and for a brief moment I did consider that as an option. I hoped at the very least the GH5s would borrow the sensor shifting from the new G9 to create fake 40mp stills from the GH5s. Not a perfect solution but it would have helped in some cases.

For me I have to determine what is more important. Extra stills resolution or the extra usable ISO range. I can live without IBIS since I have a lot of support gear that delivers superior results to IBIS anyway. It would be nice to have but what I do doesn't and shouldn't depend on that one tool to be successful.

 

[Bassman2003]

I am on the fence out IBIS killing this launch but I will say, there is a difference between handholding and using support gear. Mainly that with support gear you never touch the camera. So if the AF system is weak single person crew shooters are hesitant to shoot on full support and hope for the best. It comes down to how you use the camera. Panasonic referring to the GH5s as a "cinema" type camera is kind of a joke. It is a hybrid camera. People are going to want to hand hold it and use non stabilized lenses. These are the exact people who also want the low light capabilities. The folks on sets are the ones who do not need the low light capabilities as much. I see how Panasonic is trying to craft this scenario but they have it backwards.

 

[Thomas Smet]

An A7s3 is very likley following the A7r3 - same model progress as before and I can wait. I have a speedbooster to use wide glass in crop mode on the A7r2- non issue. M43 sensors are not more flexible - you need speedboosters and exotic glass to get shallow DOF something you can do with ease on Full frame or S35 sensor system.

That is not true at all. Hollywood shoots with s35mm which is roughly the same as APS-C. They also tend to shoot at around f4 to f5.6 to make focusing easier. It is very easy to get the exact same DOF on m43 that 95% of Hollywood movies use by using f2.8 or f4 glass. The DOF obsession from FF is exactly that, an obsession. Even compared to FF cameras m43 can very easily achieve the same DOF as FF cameras with affordable p[rime lenses. My 25mm f1.4 is equal to a FF 50mm f2.8, which is not an unrealistic f stop to shoot at 50mm on a FF camera. Beyond that and your video becomes an art fluff piece where very little to nothing is in focus.

I suggest you turn on your TV and watch a few movies tonight and write down the amount of shots you see with that 50mm f1.4 FF level of DOF. Off the top of my head I can only recall one shot in recent history and that is in the movie AI when the robot is first brought home to his new mom. Ok Amelie uses it a lot but that is a very unique case. Most TV shows and movies that Hollywood actually pays for never use that insane FF DOF that FF fans insist is some kind of norm.

As far as I am concerned both m43 and FF are equally off from the standard. Just in opposite directions of that standard. Plenty of ways to meet that standard in the middle however.

 

[Jim Simon]

"A V-LogL and Rec.709 LUT (Look Up Table) are pre-installed in the camera"

That's nice.

 

[joe12south]

I'm not sure I would classify the GH5s as a "hybrid" in the same way I would the rest of the GH-line. Yes, the body is DSLR style, but the rest of the features really are tailored to make this more of a small form factor EVA-1 than a hybrid shooter's tool of choice. If you need to balance shooting stills and video, the GH5 is clearly still the best choice. If you're primarily shooting motion pictures and also want to be able to grab production stills, then the GH5s will do nicely.

With that out of the way, we then get down to the nuances of your *motion* shooting style and needs. This is where the choice becomes tougher, and largely personal. Unfortunately, we're not yet at a point where a single camera is "good enough" at everything....but damn we're close.

If you've used the GH5 IBIS, it's hard to consider losing it. It's that good. But when I step back and ask myself "do I need it?" and "is it more important than better IQ?", for the majority of my use cases, the answer is "no". For others, the answer will be "yes". There is no right or wrong, just choice.

It's not a joke - at all - to say that the GH5s is targeted as a "cinema" camera. Those sort of narrative productions are where it will absolutely excel. Not every movie has an Arri budget. Even if they do, there are always times when a smaller camera is more important than a better camera. Low light sensitivity enables creative possibilities for practical lighting that are radically changing cinematography. "Low light" doesn't necessarily mean "not lighting."

 

[Bern Caughey]

Been under a couple of Panasonic’s NDAs, & do not believe they leaked the specs for the GH5s, especially as the rumors most certainly hurt sales of the GH5 during the all important Holiday Season.

The detailed specs were leaked immediately after Panasonic previewed the camera to their last round of focus groups so it seems some unethical individual who was under a NDA just couldn’t keep a secret.

 

[Bassman2003]

Joe 12,Good points of which I agree. But many of these can be applied to the GH5 from a cinema point of view. It kind of splits hairs.

 

[Thomas Smet]

I am on the fence out IBIS killing this launch but I will say, there is a difference between handholding and using support gear. Mainly that with support gear you never touch the camera. So if the AF system is weak single person crew shooters are hesitant to shoot on full support and hope for the best. It comes down to how you use the camera. Panasonic referring to the GH5s as a "cinema" type camera is kind of a joke. It is a hybrid camera. People are going to want to hand hold it and use non stabilized lenses. These are the exact people who also want the low light capabilities. The folks on sets are the ones who do not need the low light capabilities as much. I see how Panasonic is trying to craft this scenario but they have it backwards.

What the heck are you talking about? What did people do for decades before IBIS? Just turn on the camera, not touch it and hope for the best?

I constantly touch my camera when it is on a tripod and that camera is 100x sturdier than IBIS. I touch the camera when using a slider. I touch it when using a shoulder brace in exactly the same way I touched a ENG camera on my shoulder. I touch it when using a monopod and I touch it when using a lens with stabilization.

If you are talking about a gimbal then you have a point but that is a niche use case for stabilizing a camera. Walking around aimlessly while shooting is only one style of shooting out of hundreds of styles. I hope that isn't the only style you provide for your clients.

There are also lenses with stabilization which again most of us used for a very long time with high levels of success.

honestly some of you act like you can no longer shoot with a camera if it doesn't have IBIS and I find that very sad.

Why is the GH5s as a cinema camera a joke? I must have missed the punchline somewhere. It shoots 10bit 4:2:2 400mbps DCI 4k which is a cinema standard. A lot of Hollywood movies are not shot ram but are shot with ProRes to keep the cost down. DCI 10bit 4:2:2 400mbps log is essentially the same format as ProRes. The GH5s doesn't do any scaling so you get a clean 1:1 output from the sensor and it works extremely well for indoor shots due to the dual ISO. In every way shape or form it is a cinema camera. Concerned about the lack of s35mm DOF and FOV then add a Speedbooster. You now have a camera that is virtually identical to a s35mm camera in almost every single way. Sure it is small but who cares? The GH1, GH2, GH3, GH4 and every Canon, Nikon DSLR are small as well and people handheld those and didn't have IBIS.

You also completely miss the point of having a cleaner camera and that is so the normal ISO levels look cleaner as well. V-log on the GH5s will overall be easier to work with due to the cleaner shadows. This means more professional grading and shooting ISO2500 indoors will also be just as clean. This is absolutely a cinema camera.

 

[Thomas Smet]

Joe 12,Good points of which I agree. But many of these can be applied to the GH5 from a cinema point of view. It kind of splits hairs.

The same was also true of the GH4. If you recorded DCI 4k externally it was absolutely 100% a cinema camera.

What even defines a cinema camera really? Is there a clear definition of what that even means? To me it means format, quality and matching the look of a s35mm size sensor. All of which we have been able to do since the GH4 (externally).

 

[philiplipetz]

You also completely miss the point of having a cleaner camera and that is so the normal ISO levels look cleaner as well. V-log on the GH5s will overall be easier to work with due to the cleaner shadows. This means more professional grading and shooting ISO2500 indoors will also be just as clean. This is absolutely a cinema camera.

This alone is enough to make my team want it. We are so tired of having to choose between clean shadows and smooth highlights. This could make V Log much more useful for us.

 

[joe12south]

Joe 12,Good points of which I agree. But many of these can be applied to the GH5 from a cinema point of view. It kind of splits hairs.

For sure, but the GH5s is just even more so. Adding timecode, for example.

 

[joe12south]

The same was also true of the GH4. If you recorded DCI 4k externally it was absolutely 100% a cinema camera.

What even defines a cinema camera really? Is there a clear definition of what that even means? To me it means format, quality and matching the look of a s35mm size sensor. All of which we have been able to do since the GH4 (externally).

For me, "cinema" means, among other things, equal PQ to film. In that respect, the most important "cinema" feature that is still lacking on the GH-series (maybe the only feature still lacking) is dynamic range. What maddens me about this is that it is a design choice. The GH3, GH4, GH5, GH5s are all capable of delivering enough range (as evidenced by the raw stills), but the way in which the image is encoded for storage crushes it. Compressed RAW to a v90 card is technically possible. Record speed is high enough, and required processing power is actually less than for HVEC, but it wouldn't be a "standard", and Panny seems loath to support non-standard formats.

 

[dcloud]

https://youtu.be/PEyiSQi0luk

 

[IronFilm]

Good luck waiting for something that even the rumor sites don't see coming anytime soon.

It is OK to about ISO12800 then the sparkling noise kicks in. That camera (i have one) is shockingly bad in FF mode at high ISOs, and cropping means no wide angles.

What they say is it is more flexible. For situations where a wider DOF is needed, it does have a 2 stop advantage. For situations where it is not needed, a .64x speedbooster can be used, or a .71x speedbooster with an F1.8 zoom.

But now there is a camera with 10 bit video that is as clean as the A7S at ISO12800 and ISO25600 before a speedbooster or before getting the 2 stop advantage for DoF.

And according to Sony's site while they do have a 4/3rds "STARVIS" sensor, they do not yet have one for FF. We don't know when or if there ever be one.

But here is what I think is most important. We've hit the "great enough" limit. A GH5s with an F/0.95 prime or a speed booster and an F/1.8 zoom is going to be able to shoot good 10-bit video in virtually total darkness. It will be able to shoot in indoors 240FPS video with a 1/450th of second shutter speed. That is more than enough for me.

Exactly!! People don't realise how "so called FF" (I detest the way "full frame" is used to refer to 135 format) can put you at a disadvantage when shooting a script.

As the DoP, you (together with the director) decide on a certain DoF you want to shoot a scene at.

Do you for instance only want the tip of the actress' nose to be in focus or do you want her whole face to be sharp? Do you want the person she is sitting next (imagine you are shooting down the bar, not straight on) to to be totally blown out of focus and not clear (you might), or do you want her to be out focus but still kinda clear who the person is, or do you want them *both* to be sharply in focus? (like an iPhone! ha)

What you pick depends on the scene and story you're trying to tell, what is appropriate to match with it.

Then whatever DoF you decide upon after that (be it a few inches, or a few feet) you then translate that to the right F stop (well... T stop, if you want to be consistent across lens changes) to shoot on your lens. And if you're using an a7Smk2 instead of a GH5S, that F stop is forced to be a lot higher! Which thus starts you off at a disadvantage in a low light scene vs a GH5S.

 

[IronFilm]

That is not true at all. Hollywood shoots with s35mm which is roughly the same as APS-C. They also tend to shoot at around f4 to f5.6 to make focusing easier. It is very easy to get the exact same DOF on m43 that 95% of Hollywood movies use by using f2.8 or f4 glass. The DOF obsession from FF is exactly that, an obsession. Even compared to FF cameras m43 can very easily achieve the same DOF as FF cameras with affordable p[rime lenses. My 25mm f1.4 is equal to a FF 50mm f2.8, which is not an unrealistic f stop to shoot at 50mm on a FF camera. Beyond that and your video becomes an art fluff piece where very little to nothing is in focus.

I suggest you turn on your TV and watch a few movies tonight and write down the amount of shots you see with that 50mm f1.4 FF level of DOF. Off the top of my head I can only recall one shot in recent history and that is in the movie AI when the robot is first brought home to his new mom. Ok Amelie uses it a lot but that is a very unique case. Most TV shows and movies that Hollywood actually pays for never use that insane FF DOF that FF fans insist is some kind of norm.

As far as I am concerned both m43 and FF are equally off from the standard. Just in opposite directions of that standard. Plenty of ways to meet that standard in the middle however.

Exactly. If people had more real life experience on film sets (or just kept their eyes open while watching films themselves?? Gee) then they'd realise the sensor size of MFT is not so much of a big deal as some people make it out to be. And that S35 is the standard (which the multi aspect ratio sensor of the GH2 and now the GH5S comes very close to!)

You'll have to trade detail for speed. When you need the former, you've got 4K/60, when you need the latter, you've got 1080/240. Glad to have it.

Is kinda insane we can even talk about 240fps FHD as an option! I mean... wow!

For me however the big potential deal breaker could be the low resolutions stills on the GH5s. I use my GH4 for video and stills and the prospect of going backwards and only shooting 10mp stills is more or less a no go. I don't really want to haul two bodies around either and for a brief moment I did consider that as an option. I hoped at the very least the GH5s would borrow the sensor shifting from the new G9 to create fake 40mp stills from the GH5s. Not a perfect solution but it would have helped in some cases.

10megapixels is DOUBLE what my first ever DSLR had!

I think I could live with 10megapixels on my video camera just fine

 

[Thomas Smet]

For me, "cinema" means, among other things, equal PQ to film. In that respect, the most important "cinema" feature that is still lacking on the GH-series (maybe the only feature still lacking) is dynamic range. What maddens me about this is that it is a design choice. The GH3, GH4, GH5, GH5s are all capable of delivering enough range (as evidenced by the raw stills), but the way in which the image is encoded for storage crushes it. Compressed RAW to a v90 card is technically possible. Record speed is high enough, and required processing power is actually less than for HVEC, but it wouldn't be a "standard", and Panny seems loath to support non-standard formats.

And yet we see hundreds of comparisons online where the Gh5 with V-log holds up well compared to other cinema cameras dynamic range. 12 stops is within cinematic range. It may not be as high as other cameras but it is well above the rec709 video range of dynamic range.

A lot of factors go into the dynamic range of a camera and because of dual ISO the Gh5s still likely has a clean 12 stops at ISO 2500 vs other higher dynamic range cameras that may drop below 12 stops at ISO 2500. The Sony A7S for example may only get around 11 stops at ISO 2500 so indoors the GH5s is a better choice for dynamic range. The original RED camera also had 12 stops of dynamic range and there were a lot of feature films created with that camera. The Sony F900 Cinealta had much less dynamic range (10?) and was used on some rather big budget Hollywood movies, Star Wars for example and Robert Rodriguez used it a lot for some of his films like Once Upon a Time in Mexico. Dynamic range isn't really a definition of cinematic because marketed cinema cameras really range from 10 stops up to 16 stops depending on the camera. Movies shot on the RED One are not suddenly less cinematic. Just means cameras today can be used with a bit more flexibility. Once graded for delivery most of that extra range above 12 stops is lost anyway. 12 stops on the GH5 just means you have to take a little extra care when shooting. Using traditional tools like lights and bounce cards to pump some of the light back into the shadows will be more important. In the end I think it forces GH5 shooters to be better film makers because they create a more balanced image that will deliver better to a wider range of users.

 

[Bassman2003]

What the heck are you talking about? What did people do for decades before IBIS? Just turn on the camera, not touch it and hope for the best?

I constantly touch my camera when it is on a tripod and that camera is 100x sturdier than IBIS. I touch the camera when using a slider. I touch it when using a shoulder brace in exactly the same way I touched a ENG camera on my shoulder. I touch it when using a monopod and I touch it when using a lens with stabilization.

If you are talking about a gimbal then you have a point but that is a niche use case for stabilizing a camera. Walking around aimlessly while shooting is only one style of shooting out of hundreds of styles. I hope that isn't the only style you provide for your clients.

There are also lenses with stabilization which again most of us used for a very long time with high levels of success.

honestly some of you act like you can no longer shoot with a camera if it doesn't have IBIS and I find that very sad.

Why is the GH5s as a cinema camera a joke? I must have missed the punchline somewhere. It shoots 10bit 4:2:2 400mbps DCI 4k which is a cinema standard. A lot of Hollywood movies are not shot ram but are shot with ProRes to keep the cost down. DCI 10bit 4:2:2 400mbps log is essentially the same format as ProRes. The GH5s doesn't do any scaling so you get a clean 1:1 output from the sensor and it works extremely well for indoor shots due to the dual ISO. In every way shape or form it is a cinema camera. Concerned about the lack of s35mm DOF and FOV then add a Speedbooster. You now have a camera that is virtually identical to a s35mm camera in almost every single way. Sure it is small but who cares? The GH1, GH2, GH3, GH4 and every Canon, Nikon DSLR are small as well and people handheld those and didn't have IBIS.

You also completely miss the point of having a cleaner camera and that is so the normal ISO levels look cleaner as well. V-log on the GH5s will overall be easier to work with due to the cleaner shadows. This means more professional grading and shooting ISO2500 indoors will also be just as clean. This is absolutely a cinema camera.

With all due respect, I think you need to calm down a bit! What I was talking about was camera stabilization tools, not a tripod.... Geez, how stupid do you want to take this? I am not even defending IBIS very strongly.

Also, I did not say the GH5s was a joke when being thought of as a cinema camera. I was speaking to the form factor. Any camera used in cinema production can be considered a cinema camera. It makes nice images and has some resolution formats but saying it is a cinema camera and the GH5 is not is kind of silly to me. They are the same form factor.

Yes, point to the obvious, lower noise makes better images...for all shooting scenarios. Fine if you want to think of it as a cinema camera but I see it as a GH5 with a better sensor! Peace and it is only a camera.