For anyone who scoffed at my wanting a 400 Mb/s All-I 4K mode, HAH!!!
GH4 Panasonic GH5 coming in 2017
- Thread starter Dan Keeble
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For anyone who scoffed at my wanting a 400 Mb/s All-I 4K mode, HAH!!!
roxics
Veteran
Thanks. I wasn't sure if I heard that right, about 48fps being 10bit 4:2:2. That's great that it is. But you're right, that's all Intra, seems they could do IPB at 60fps 10bit 4:2:2.
filmguy123
Veteran
2:58 - Dynamic Range straight from Panasonic
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MukM7WhCgQU
The better lowlight comes from internal NR post processing, which later in the interview is mentioned that this cannot currently be turned off. If it's good NR than no reason to turn it off, but I would be very curious to see the lowlight @ ISO 1600/ISO 3200 tested more with faces, motion, etc.
13:00-15:00 - Dynamic Range + Low Light straight from Panasonic
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_tyM4dMkkeQ
Still looks very appealing, but a bit of a bummer that the DR is identical, and the lowlight comes from post processing noise VS lowering noise floor.
Everything else looks awesome. ESPECIALLY if they could open up 400mbps 4k 60p IPB 10-bit 4:2:2. But it does damper my enthusiam a bit, since the most important thing to me is lowlight & DR over bitrates and codecs. I may well still order, I just want to see and hear a little more first.
Back on the positive side, the AF - if performs as described on video - could be a game changer and allow f/2.0 gimbal shots to be set with AF while having movement/distance changes... all as a one man band on super lightweight setup and stabilizers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MukM7WhCgQU
The better lowlight comes from internal NR post processing, which later in the interview is mentioned that this cannot currently be turned off. If it's good NR than no reason to turn it off, but I would be very curious to see the lowlight @ ISO 1600/ISO 3200 tested more with faces, motion, etc.
13:00-15:00 - Dynamic Range + Low Light straight from Panasonic
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_tyM4dMkkeQ
Still looks very appealing, but a bit of a bummer that the DR is identical, and the lowlight comes from post processing noise VS lowering noise floor.
Everything else looks awesome. ESPECIALLY if they could open up 400mbps 4k 60p IPB 10-bit 4:2:2. But it does damper my enthusiam a bit, since the most important thing to me is lowlight & DR over bitrates and codecs. I may well still order, I just want to see and hear a little more first.
Back on the positive side, the AF - if performs as described on video - could be a game changer and allow f/2.0 gimbal shots to be set with AF while having movement/distance changes... all as a one man band on super lightweight setup and stabilizers.
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I think you have to think of this as the DR is identical to 10-bit 4:2:2 V-log on a GH4 using an external recorder, which is listed as 12 F-stops.
There is so much noise with the internal GH4 V-log that I don't think you are getting the full 12 F-stops of DR until you connect to an external recorder.
The one thing that has not been mentioned so far ( from what I've seen ) is what is the GH5 HDMI output capable of ? The same as the GH4 ?
joe12south
Veteran
Hard to make conclusions on footage after running through YouTube compression, but based on what has been published, it does indeed seem like we can expect demonstrable improvements. Clean ISO1600 will make me very happy. Anything usable above that is icing on the cake.
filmguy123
Veteran
Fair point, and nice to have it in camera for lightweight convenience, but still disappointing that it's not up to 13 stops like the BMC camera. Everything else about the GH5 is preferable though. I think we would have gotten that had they stuck with a 16mp sensor.
I thought I had seen it mentioned in one of the videos (perhaps the BH one) that HDMI external recording would be 10-bit 4:2:2 4K 60p
joe12south
Veteran
I believe HDMI out goes to the max: 4K/60P/4:2:2/10bit
Thomas Smet
Veteran
Exciting new camera. Couple of thoughts:
1. Yay for the 6k anamorphic mode coming. 5184x3888 is very interesting for two reasons.
A. Anamorphic 8k scope has a vertical resolution of 3432. This means you could kind of get 8k Scope from the GH5 with a good anamorphic lens.
B. You can use that mode with a normal lens to get 5k video that you crop in post to 16x9 with extra vertical resolution. Crop to 4k to have a lot of room to reframe in all directions. Could be very nice for VFX for tracking to have a bit of extra frame to work with. Remember Enders Game was shot at 5k like this and scaled to 2.5k to have a bit of room to play with for the 2k. We could do the same thing with the GH5 6k photo mode.
2. 400 mbps all I may be a bit low for those seeking the best possible quality. ProRes422 HQ 4k is 880 mbps. I'm sure it is a nice format in general but remember the Panasonic all I formats always missed the mark slightly in terms of quality. Great for those who don't want to use an external recorder but for those seeking the best possible quality you will still very likely want to use an external recorder. Now if we could get that 400mbps with IPB H264 that would be very nice.
3. DCI 48p is very welcome. This covers the most realistic uses for higher frame rates for DCI film making. 2x slow motion or yes the Peter Jackson 48p which I hate but hey it's there if you want it.
4. DR is about the same which I suspected due to the size of the photo sites. Smaller photo sites but they are newer so its a wash. Part of me kind of wishes the GH5 would have used less pixels so we could have had an increase in DR but oh well. 12 stops with V-log is not bad, the original RED ONE was 12 stops and that was used for a lot of films.
5. Low light will be interesting. Panasonic claims 2 stops but I think most of that is just from better NR in camera. The s/n ratio is better so thats very good. The auto NR with higher ISO levels is annoying but I don't tend to shoot at ISO levels that high anyway so no big deal I guess.
6. Would love to find out a few things:
A. HDMI delay?
B. Manual white balance with 10bit output?
C. Aliasing/moire since the sensor is scaled. What type of scaling is it?
D. Can the HDMI output be set to 16-235 when using V-log for external monitor/recorders so they don't display incorrect levels?
1. Yay for the 6k anamorphic mode coming. 5184x3888 is very interesting for two reasons.
A. Anamorphic 8k scope has a vertical resolution of 3432. This means you could kind of get 8k Scope from the GH5 with a good anamorphic lens.
B. You can use that mode with a normal lens to get 5k video that you crop in post to 16x9 with extra vertical resolution. Crop to 4k to have a lot of room to reframe in all directions. Could be very nice for VFX for tracking to have a bit of extra frame to work with. Remember Enders Game was shot at 5k like this and scaled to 2.5k to have a bit of room to play with for the 2k. We could do the same thing with the GH5 6k photo mode.
2. 400 mbps all I may be a bit low for those seeking the best possible quality. ProRes422 HQ 4k is 880 mbps. I'm sure it is a nice format in general but remember the Panasonic all I formats always missed the mark slightly in terms of quality. Great for those who don't want to use an external recorder but for those seeking the best possible quality you will still very likely want to use an external recorder. Now if we could get that 400mbps with IPB H264 that would be very nice.
3. DCI 48p is very welcome. This covers the most realistic uses for higher frame rates for DCI film making. 2x slow motion or yes the Peter Jackson 48p which I hate but hey it's there if you want it.
4. DR is about the same which I suspected due to the size of the photo sites. Smaller photo sites but they are newer so its a wash. Part of me kind of wishes the GH5 would have used less pixels so we could have had an increase in DR but oh well. 12 stops with V-log is not bad, the original RED ONE was 12 stops and that was used for a lot of films.
5. Low light will be interesting. Panasonic claims 2 stops but I think most of that is just from better NR in camera. The s/n ratio is better so thats very good. The auto NR with higher ISO levels is annoying but I don't tend to shoot at ISO levels that high anyway so no big deal I guess.
6. Would love to find out a few things:
A. HDMI delay?
B. Manual white balance with 10bit output?
C. Aliasing/moire since the sensor is scaled. What type of scaling is it?
D. Can the HDMI output be set to 16-235 when using V-log for external monitor/recorders so they don't display incorrect levels?
filmguy123
Veteran
Good post Thomas.
One thing I am wrestling with here is how important them opening up the 400mbps mode to IPB might be to me. 4K 60p 4:2:2 10-bit in IPB would make a massive difference to me, and here is why:
The DR hasn't changed from GH4 to GH5, only the convenience of it (internal recording of 10-bit 4:2:2 means the Vlog can be utilized without external recorders). This is important less from a cost perspective, and more from a lightweight, run'n'gun, usability perspective. Therefore, one of the biggest draws of the camera is 12-stops DR in VlogL that is usable with great convience (internally).
Good 4K modes are very appealing, but only if the aforementioned benefit is maintained.
I shoot almost exclusively in some variation of VFR mode... 36fps, 42fps, 48fps, 60fps. The only way I will use 4K is if I can maintain that creative flexibility. The only way I would use the GH5 (except for special shot requirements) would be in VlogL 10-bit 4:2:2, solely because that being a basic requirement to maximize DR.
Thus, no 4K VFR in 10-bit 4:2:2 means I wouldn't really use 4K... only 1080p up to 60p where I can get that full quality (10b422) for internal vlogL and good DR.
Which means without them opening IPB 400mbps for VFR 4K in 10-bit 422, the camera loses all the 4K appeal for me and the feature set can be reduced (for my uses) to: "GH4 with 12 stops DR internally for FHD, instead of 10-11". Obviously there's a bit more to it than that, but opening up that 400mbps to 4K IPB 10-bit 422 for VFR up to 60p would instead make that benefit: "GH4 with 12 stops DR internally for 4K w/60p VFR, instead of 10-11 and HD only"
One thing I am wrestling with here is how important them opening up the 400mbps mode to IPB might be to me. 4K 60p 4:2:2 10-bit in IPB would make a massive difference to me, and here is why:
The DR hasn't changed from GH4 to GH5, only the convenience of it (internal recording of 10-bit 4:2:2 means the Vlog can be utilized without external recorders). This is important less from a cost perspective, and more from a lightweight, run'n'gun, usability perspective. Therefore, one of the biggest draws of the camera is 12-stops DR in VlogL that is usable with great convience (internally).
Good 4K modes are very appealing, but only if the aforementioned benefit is maintained.
I shoot almost exclusively in some variation of VFR mode... 36fps, 42fps, 48fps, 60fps. The only way I will use 4K is if I can maintain that creative flexibility. The only way I would use the GH5 (except for special shot requirements) would be in VlogL 10-bit 4:2:2, solely because that being a basic requirement to maximize DR.
Thus, no 4K VFR in 10-bit 4:2:2 means I wouldn't really use 4K... only 1080p up to 60p where I can get that full quality (10b422) for internal vlogL and good DR.
Which means without them opening IPB 400mbps for VFR 4K in 10-bit 422, the camera loses all the 4K appeal for me and the feature set can be reduced (for my uses) to: "GH4 with 12 stops DR internally for FHD, instead of 10-11". Obviously there's a bit more to it than that, but opening up that 400mbps to 4K IPB 10-bit 422 for VFR up to 60p would instead make that benefit: "GH4 with 12 stops DR internally for 4K w/60p VFR, instead of 10-11 and HD only"
joe12south
Veteran
It is quite likely that the improvement in usable dynamic range based on better processing is going to be meaningful. Reading between the lines, I would not be surprised if the GH5 provides 12 actual usable stops, which is 4x the reasonably useful latitude of the GH4.
Actual use may prove me wrong, but my intuition tells me that Panny is speaking conservatively about DR, as they often do. (I really wanted to see the GH5 push into the 14 stop range, but didn't actually expect it.)
Actual use may prove me wrong, but my intuition tells me that Panny is speaking conservatively about DR, as they often do. (I really wanted to see the GH5 push into the 14 stop range, but didn't actually expect it.)
joe12south
Veteran
I would not assume that V-LOG L is necessary to get 12 usable stops. With the GH4, you have 10 usable stops, and V-LOG L really nets you 11. Due to the better processing, my prediction is that the GH5 will have 12 usable stops, and V-LOG L will nudge it to 13 if you're willing to massage it in post. (Just speculation without using it, but reaosnable speculation based on what has been shown and said.)
Also, after the summer upgrade you'll be able to go as high as 4K/48p/4:2:2/10bit internal so you will have some VFR capability while retaining the higher color resolution.
I wonder if this is going to add a "Red-like" HDR, which is done (see, I remember your posts) by mixing in a quick frame at a higher shutter speed. Unlike a dual analog readout, this is an artificial dynamic range extension but, more importantly, no one will be able to really tell. And then you can add two-three more stops on top of the stipulated twelve.
PS. It'd be interesting to see if there's any difference when shooting to an external recorder in ProRes. When the NX1 hack upped the rate from 80 to 150 (in H265), the difference was basically indiscernible.
PPS. The old adage of "80 percent of the performance for twenty percent of the price", will now be "ninety five percent for one tenth of the price".
filmguy123
Veteran
How do you determine USABLE stops vs claimed? Panasonic claimed 12 stops with VlogL for the GH4 and are claiming the same with the GH5 when using vlog, and said the DR hasn't really changed much. What you are saying sounds great, just wondering what makes you so confident that the GH5 is being undermarketted (when Panny did the opposite the VlogL upgrade in GH4), and has stated nothing has changed on DR?
I very much appreciate the 48p 4K 4:2:2 10-bit internal mode, so thats why I really hope they open the VFR up to make it quick and easy to jump between 24p, 36p, 48p in that setting.
I've actually pre-ordered the GH5, though I'm 100% sold yet and figure I can cancel before it ships. These two issues (usable DR vs GH4, and IPB 4K VFR @ 400mbps) are huge to me.
I very much appreciate the 48p 4K 4:2:2 10-bit internal mode, so thats why I really hope they open the VFR up to make it quick and easy to jump between 24p, 36p, 48p in that setting.
I've actually pre-ordered the GH5, though I'm 100% sold yet and figure I can cancel before it ships. These two issues (usable DR vs GH4, and IPB 4K VFR @ 400mbps) are huge to me.
Thomas Smet
Veteran
To be honest I have some concerns with the internal 10bit and V-log for the GH5. Many assume the 8bit was the factor that hurt V-log on the GH4 but that was only a small part of the equation. The part that caused the ugly color blotches was the encoder itself. Recording V-log external at 8bits mostly eliminated a lot of the ugly artifacts. Of course banding was still an issue but in terms of the odd artifacts those mostly went away. When the GH5 comes out the internal 10bit mode will be limited to 150mbps. Not much higher than the current 100mbps especially when you factor in the extra bits needed for 4:2:2 and 10bit. Now the data rate has nothing to do with how the encoder deals with the color channels but it is important to keep in mind that the encoder is still H264 based and therefore we may still have those ugly color artifacts with internal V-log. I'm hoping Panasonic improved on the color macro blocking of the encoder.
Even when the encoder gets bumped up to 400mbps that still doesn't tell us how it will handle those subtle color macro blocks. This is why I still prefer ProRes for V-log.
Another thing I thought of about the 400mbps all-I mode is when used with 60p 4k that could be one seriously bit starved codec vs ProRes which would be around 1600 mbps for 4k 60p. Don't expect miracles from that format.
dustylense
Veteran
Thomas Smet
Veteran
Until we know for sure that is speculation. Panasonic has been very firm that the DR increase is marginal and if it really was better they would market the heck out of that. Marketing would love to print the GH5 has 13 stops of DR but alas they are not saying anything about the DR. In marketing typically if you don't flaunt a spec that means it isn't special. The sensor has smaller photo sites and while newer that means the DR may be a wash which is exactly what somebody from Panasonic just stated in a video. The m43 is really hitting a ceiling of DR and even newer sensor cameras like the GX8 and not capable of hitting any better DR.
If the GH5 would have stayed at 16MP perhaps it could have pushed 13 stops but we will never know.
Thomas Smet
Veteran
ok I take back the part about the color. Just downloaded a few 10bit clips that are V-log and so far they look great with the Panasonic LUT applied in FCPX. I don't notice the same color issues as on the GH4.
filmguy123
Veteran
Thomas, since you have experience with the GH4 vlog footage - what is your assessment of the Dynamic Range as far as you can tell from the downloaded footage?