joe12south
Veteran
Let's not confuse external recording with external monitoring. Some devices do both, but many, many users take advantage of the benefits of a monitor, like SmallHD, while recording internally.
GH4 Panasonic GH5 coming in 2017
- Thread starter Dan Keeble
- Start date
You bring up a good point on monitoring the video with a 10-bit display. I can't remember where I heard this, but one of the Panny marketing guys said the new rear display has RGBW elements and the rear monitor is now an LCD monitor instead of an OLED. I wonder if this monitor can do accurate HDR representation since the summer firmware is adding this capability?
filmguy123
Veteran
This is a technical question, not a marketing question, as I understand there may be marketing differentiation concerns here as well. But if the GH5 can record 4K sustained at 60p, and even that doesn't top out it's hardware bitrate (400mbps coming in summer, providing even more data bandwidth)...
Then why is it capped at 180fps 1080p? 4K is 4x the pixels of 1080, so given that it can currently handle infinitely sustained 4k 60p with headroom (since we'll have a higher bitrate codec coming), wouldn't it stand to reason that 1080p 240fps would be about the same data throughput as 4k 60p?
Then why is it capped at 180fps 1080p? 4K is 4x the pixels of 1080, so given that it can currently handle infinitely sustained 4k 60p with headroom (since we'll have a higher bitrate codec coming), wouldn't it stand to reason that 1080p 240fps would be about the same data throughput as 4k 60p?
Firmware's one thing, but a panel is just a panel. I doubt it'd be able to do more than it can on launch, brightness wise.
philiplipetz
Veteran
On a slightly different note, I have not seen any reference to a S16 crop. Would love to combine this encoding with S16 cone glass. What would be the resolution of S16 crop in both 4K and 6k modes?
stoneinapond
Veteran
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visceralpsyche
Well-known member
I will definitely be supporting Hyper Log Gamma curve with a LUT when it's released, on top of Cine-D and V-Log L. Hopefully it fills the 10bit bucket like Joe said, while using all the dynamic range of the camera's sensor (see how much more you can pull out of a GH4 stills image compared to video and you'll understand what I mean).
I also agree with the upcoming 400Mbit codecs probably being AVC-Ultra. Makes sense that they'd want to get it right and have the SD card speeds to cope with it, to sell through vertical integration. Should be great if that is the case, combined with HLG....
Cheers,
Paul
I also agree with the upcoming 400Mbit codecs probably being AVC-Ultra. Makes sense that they'd want to get it right and have the SD card speeds to cope with it, to sell through vertical integration. Should be great if that is the case, combined with HLG....
Cheers,
Paul
iain.bason
Well-known member
It's probably a limitation on how fast the sensor can be read. Remember that it's still reading the whole sensor at 1080p, just as it is in 4K.
joe12south
Veteran
Raw data throughput is just one of the many possible bottlenecks within the image pipeline. Full CMOS read-out may top out at 180fps, encoder speed may top out at 180fps, etc., etc.
Thomas Smet
Veteran
I will definitely be supporting Hyper Log Gamma curve with a LUT when it's released, on top of Cine-D and V-Log L. Hopefully it fills the 10bit bucket like Joe said, while using all the dynamic range of the camera's sensor (see how much more you can pull out of a GH4 stills image compared to video and you'll understand what I mean).
I also agree with the upcoming 400Mbit codecs probably being AVC-Ultra. Makes sense that they'd want to get it right and have the SD card speeds to cope with it, to sell through vertical integration. Should be great if that is the case, combined with HLG....
Cheers,
Paul
Plus I think AVC-Ultra 4k is only supported by one or two cameras so it might be nice for Panasonic to show the format some extra love since it is so good. It would be a really good marketing position since other manufacturers would have a hard time matching AVC-Ultra. The GH5 may not have raw but 10bit log AVC-Ultra internal is about as close as you can get to raw without actually being raw.
joe12south
Veteran
I'm hopeful - but skeptical - about AVC-Ultra. Panasonic is better than any other manufacturer about letting "pro" features slide down into consumer products, but my guess is that they will want to leave AVC-Ultra as a differentiator.
Also, it's good to remember that the reason an all-i codec needs so much bandwidth is not purely PQ, but rather edit-friendliness. It's less taxing on the editing CPU to not have to reconstruct frames, but it's not necessarily visually better. (Oft times the opposite is true.)
I mention this because it's easy to fall into the simplistic thinking that all-i codecs are always better, as that's how they are usually marketed. A long-gop codec is more capture friendly, more storage friendly, modern CPU's are more likely to be able to decode reasonably fast, and you always have the option to transcode (just what you need) to a native edit-friendly format. NLE's like FCPX make it brain-dead simple to quickly, invisibly used transcoded and proxy footage, which yields the best of both worlds.
Granted, there are some special scenarios where you really do "need" either the quality of a bandwidth heavy codec or the speed of an all-i codec, and in those cases a ProRes recorder does the job nicely. Those scenarios diminish with each camera generation, though. For example, my GH3 used to require a recorder to pull high quality 1080P keys...but now I can easily do so from GH4 4K footage. I expect i'll be able to pull clean 4K keys from the GH5.
Also, it's good to remember that the reason an all-i codec needs so much bandwidth is not purely PQ, but rather edit-friendliness. It's less taxing on the editing CPU to not have to reconstruct frames, but it's not necessarily visually better. (Oft times the opposite is true.)
I mention this because it's easy to fall into the simplistic thinking that all-i codecs are always better, as that's how they are usually marketed. A long-gop codec is more capture friendly, more storage friendly, modern CPU's are more likely to be able to decode reasonably fast, and you always have the option to transcode (just what you need) to a native edit-friendly format. NLE's like FCPX make it brain-dead simple to quickly, invisibly used transcoded and proxy footage, which yields the best of both worlds.
Granted, there are some special scenarios where you really do "need" either the quality of a bandwidth heavy codec or the speed of an all-i codec, and in those cases a ProRes recorder does the job nicely. Those scenarios diminish with each camera generation, though. For example, my GH3 used to require a recorder to pull high quality 1080P keys...but now I can easily do so from GH4 4K footage. I expect i'll be able to pull clean 4K keys from the GH5.
Thomas Smet
Veteran
Of course but the biggest issue people have with recording externally is the extra piece of gear. If one is going to use a monitor anyway then there is really no extra effort in recording externally. Currently the Flame is the only 10bit 1920x1080 1500 nit brightness panel on the market so even if one just wanted a good monitor I would choose that over a SmallHD any day.
I agree, SmallHD charges way too much for its monitors especially given the monitor in the atomos is true 10-bit HDR capable and 1500 nits, so alone I don't see why anyone would buy the 702 etc, the recording capability is a bonus. Well I know SmallHD got bought out by a larger company so much of the benefit for the consumer went away with that acquisition and they're still operating on pricing from years ago when there weren't many decent affordable options.
Thomas Smet
Veteran
Thats why I said if it isn't AVC-Ultra I would question how good the 400mbps all-i coming later will actually be. All-I can be visually better if it is done right. There is a good reason again why Hollywood only considers ProRes as an alternative to raw. The all-I formats we have seen on previous GH cameras was horribly implemented but should not be viewed as a judgement against all all-I formats.
All-I isn't as efficient but it is more consistent. Professionals use all-I at high enough data rates because it offers a consistent recording across a wide range on shooting situations. IPB is great visually but can be unpredictable when the shot gets really complex. So one shot can look great and the next can fall apart. Using a format like ProRes means no matter how much movement or complexity is in the shot it will look the same as the other shots. The lack of efficiency is also why ProRes comes in multiple flavors to help combat this lack of efficiency. It wastes bandwidth but it has it where it counts when it needs it.
Think of ProRes like buying lunch for the office everyday. Some days there may be 5 people in the office and some days there may be 20 people. While it makes sense to be smart about how much food to buy to save money it can't always be predicted when you have to order the food the night before. Some would order enough food for 10 people and force them to share if 20 people show up. They are all fed but grumpy all day. The other approach to to always budget for enough food for 20 people to know you will have enough. Yes it wastes food but everybody has enough to eat and they will be happy. A bad all-I format would only budget for 10 people and force them to share the food if 20 people showed up but it would tell each person exactly what to eat and not allow the bigger people to eat more food. An IPB lunch while shared would portion out the food better and give more to the bigger people. The all-I lunch would over stuff the smaller people and starve the bigger people or in some cases the smaller people would throw out half their food vs sharing it with the bigger people.
ProRes LT is like ordering 15 meals and hoping it is enough food to cover everybody if 20 people show up. ProRes HQ is like ordering enough food for 20 people and knowing you will have enough no matter what.
The previous Panasonic all-I formats were like ordering all meat when half the employees are vegan. It was just a hot mess.
joe12south
Veteran
I agree that SmallHD's pricing is tough to swallow...but the physical quality of their gear is on a whole other level than that of Atomos. My SmallHD 7" OLED has been beat to hell and never hiccuped. (And I mean smashed so hard to be reassembled.) I had an assistant drop a Ninja from waist height and it died.
joe12south
Veteran
Biggest issues I have are 1) hassle of obtrusive extra kit on certain kinds of shoots 2) extra storage space for raw footage I may never even use.
If I'm shooting a narrative piece or a music video, sure I'll kit out like I'm on a hollywood set. But if I don't want to intimidate an interviewee, or I'm shooting a wedding, or stealing a shot on the street, then there is a very real advantage to keeping the kit as unobtrusive as possible.
Don't get me wrong, external monitors and recorders definitely have their place. I'm playing devil's advocate because I think many people read about them and think that they "need" them in order to work professionally, and that's just not the case.
Thomas Smet
Veteran
The Ninjas were horrible. The newer Atoms devices are built much better. I used to be afraid to sneeze around the Ninja. I use a Blade which is not built the greatest but that is now a pretty old device. I do agree however that they have room to grow when it comes to durability. If one has a tendency to break things then durability is definitely an important factor to consider.
stoneinapond
Veteran
As of now, projected to be All-I.
I agree that the smallhd's are built well, no doubt. The new atomos are much better now too, not metal but much more durable plastic which is fine. Well I guess that's the question, how rough do you expect to be for what you shoot? I mostly shoot inside, so none of my gear takes a thrashing. If I expected to be in rough conditions, I'd probably rent so as not to trash my stuff. But then I probably baby my equipment more than most, though I don't hesitate to shoot outside, just not in bad weather. Also, I generally don't hire help...after a PA dropped a dvx100, I just handle everything myself.
Here are Panasonic's official specs for the GH5, though tentative, they published them:
https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0BzXpNy2MdkE6SDRVN09vaW9jd2c