Albert Rudnicki
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Atoms already announced future support for it (5.7 Raw and 2k 240fps raw)
EVA1: Panasonic AU-EVA1! Announcement and latest updates
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markoconnell
Well-known member
I would really prefer a locking MFT mount, an EVF and an electronically variable ND filter please.
I mean in the sub 10K S35 interchangeable lens market they are entering with the EVA not small chip broadcast whch they've been doing for donkeys years.
the AF 101 dont count it wasnt S35/ Was a nice camera for its time, but very limited in IQ
Well, that's a kinda big assumption isn't it? We don't know when the EVA will even have the final specs announced, much less a ship date, much less firmware upgrades (which all modern releases seems to need).
More specifically, the last Panasonic indie-aimed cinema camera, the AF100, was far more mature when it was announced in April of 2010 - the body, the codecs, all of it, was announced at the same time. The AF100 was released in October of that same year. Any real chance of a 6 months from now release happening with the EVA?
'Cause if that's true, Panasonic ought to be saying that.
The decision to abandon MFTs, at least for their video camera, also seems like a desperate move after so much time was spent developing that mount/sensor size/new lenses/base of users.
And of course there is also one significant difference between any of those prior releases and now - Panasonic just gutted/consolidated their video camera division due to bleeding money. The market is much more competitive then in the past, and indeed is now totally dominated in this sector by non-Panasonic companies. And it is to these rather major changes that I was alluding to specifically regarding desperation.
While I agree with you that yes, of course Panasonic will get this thing to market at some point and that it will make pretty pictures, this announcement is different then past ones for all of the reasons I listed.
So seriously Barry, it smacks of desperation.
Without knowing much about the history of Panasonic: Was the MFT mount/sensor primarily designed for video cameras? AFAIK they only had one model (well the AF100 had some sort of successor(s) if I remember correctly) with an MFT sensor/mount. Claiming that something is a desperate move, based on a camera manufacturer choosing a different mount almost seven years later, is a bit odd I think.
Here's another way to look at it:
They've done research and seen that there's market demand for an S35 sensor, and have enough resources to develop a completely new camera with a new sensor, instead of borrowing a sensor, from let's say the GH5. It doesn't seem so desperate, to me.
As Mitch has mentioned earlier, he wouldn't start working for a company that is on the verge of bankrupcy or is desperate. I take his word for it, because I wouldn't either.
Some of you here seem a bit annoyed after the presentation of the EVA1. Why is that? If you don't like Panasonic's model, buy a C200/300, FS5/7 or Ursa Mini Pro...
It's not like there aren't any options.
NorBro
Major Contributor
You could still have a S35 sensor and a MFT mount, but it's just not the way to go.
EF dominates...it's not too difficult to understand. This is a simple business decision to make money.
I like the MFT mount, I like the glass...but for every one person that would like to use their native MFT lenses on a smaller cut of the sensor or their favorite manual glass with an adapter, there are dozens of EF owners ready to use their lenses on a native EF mount with electronic control.
I understand it's disappointing to some, but you can't always get what you want, especially if there is little money to be made in the project.
Trust me...I want a Canon 1DC II, but hell will freeze over first, lol.
EF dominates...it's not too difficult to understand. This is a simple business decision to make money.
I like the MFT mount, I like the glass...but for every one person that would like to use their native MFT lenses on a smaller cut of the sensor or their favorite manual glass with an adapter, there are dozens of EF owners ready to use their lenses on a native EF mount with electronic control.
I understand it's disappointing to some, but you can't always get what you want, especially if there is little money to be made in the project.
Trust me...I want a Canon 1DC II, but hell will freeze over first, lol.
pulpfiction007
Veteran
Milan O.
Some of you here seem a bit annoyed after the presentation of the EVA1. Why is that? If you don't like Panasonic's model, buy a C200/300, FS5/7 or Ursa Mini Pro...
It's not like there aren't any options.
I think sometimes there is a lumping together of complaints as all being the same that happens on many forums. Panasonic just announced a new product is going to be available, so people are going to say what they think. Personally, the presentation doesn't matter, but it might matter to some.
The specs sound pretty damn great to me but I also don't like there is no EVF, so I said so.
I think others say things they don't like about a companies approach or a new release, because they actually REALLY like the companies products and want them to do well, so they can keep releasing products! lol. Sometimes those "complaints" get lumped in as "whining" and the usual reply is - "Don't, like it.....GO buy something else."
Well, yes....we could all just never talk, and actually never say what we like and don't like and there would be no need for forums at all. But this camera has not been finalized yet, and there is a presence of Panasonic here....so IMHO it is good to say what we love and do not love about a not yet released camera, and even about the presentations or road maps.
I totally agree 100% we should all keep things in a good perspective and if someone is just constantly bashing a camera maker, they SHOULD just get something else.
However, there is nothing wrong with nuanced debate, esp between members who really have an interest in Panasonic doing well.
Some of you here seem a bit annoyed after the presentation of the EVA1. Why is that? If you don't like Panasonic's model, buy a C200/300, FS5/7 or Ursa Mini Pro...
It's not like there aren't any options.
I think sometimes there is a lumping together of complaints as all being the same that happens on many forums. Panasonic just announced a new product is going to be available, so people are going to say what they think. Personally, the presentation doesn't matter, but it might matter to some.
The specs sound pretty damn great to me but I also don't like there is no EVF, so I said so.
I think others say things they don't like about a companies approach or a new release, because they actually REALLY like the companies products and want them to do well, so they can keep releasing products! lol. Sometimes those "complaints" get lumped in as "whining" and the usual reply is - "Don't, like it.....GO buy something else."
Well, yes....we could all just never talk, and actually never say what we like and don't like and there would be no need for forums at all. But this camera has not been finalized yet, and there is a presence of Panasonic here....so IMHO it is good to say what we love and do not love about a not yet released camera, and even about the presentations or road maps.
I totally agree 100% we should all keep things in a good perspective and if someone is just constantly bashing a camera maker, they SHOULD just get something else.
However, there is nothing wrong with nuanced debate, esp between members who really have an interest in Panasonic doing well.
I'm not against people voicing their opinion about a product, on the contrary, but some comments are just odd. Why are people claiming something is a desperate move or get upset because the presentation wasn't the way they hoped it should be, or claim that the camera is no way nearly finished (as if they have some inside information, which they probably don't have), and so on. Call me crazy, but I just don't understand what there is to be upset about.
They have told us about a new camera that will be available in a couple of months, that likely will be a very nice camera. What's upsetting about that?
filmguy123
Veteran
I think some specs are withheld for competitive reasons and not committing to anything too soon... wait and see what Canon/Sony do, play your cards close, and then release what the exact codecs will be at time of release.
I think this camera looks good, but great is in the details: quality of LCD, final codec availability, slow motion crop or not, odd menu or usability quirks or not, quality of EIS, actual ISO numbers, etc.
If they play it too conservative here, they'll be in trouble. The reality is, even if every single item listed exceeds expectations, they are in a bit of danger of being usurped within 9-12 months of release. Sony has shown a willingness to be hyper aggressive here, and this looks like either a good or great camera... if they make it great, I think they'll have a success. If they settle for good and the news in the fall is "4k 60p @ 4:2:0 8-bit; HD 120p full sensor, up to 240 crop; Dual ISO 800/3200 with 1 stop clean ISO past 3200 base before a lot of noise" I think a lot of steam will be lost.
On the other hand, High Bright/High Res LCD, 4K 60p 10-bit 4:2:2, Dual ISO 800/5000 with 2-3 stops clean ISO up, HD 120p in 10-bit 4:2:2 and 240p full sensor 8-bit 4:2:0... now that's competitive.
Devil is in the details. Sony will hit back hard. Without the right unreleased specs, the camera is just a good answer to a 3 year old FS7. With the right unreleased specs, it's playing hardball with what is inevitably right-around-the-corner from the competition. I don't want to see the EVA1 be too little, too late by the time NAB 2018 rolls around.
I think this camera looks good, but great is in the details: quality of LCD, final codec availability, slow motion crop or not, odd menu or usability quirks or not, quality of EIS, actual ISO numbers, etc.
If they play it too conservative here, they'll be in trouble. The reality is, even if every single item listed exceeds expectations, they are in a bit of danger of being usurped within 9-12 months of release. Sony has shown a willingness to be hyper aggressive here, and this looks like either a good or great camera... if they make it great, I think they'll have a success. If they settle for good and the news in the fall is "4k 60p @ 4:2:0 8-bit; HD 120p full sensor, up to 240 crop; Dual ISO 800/3200 with 1 stop clean ISO past 3200 base before a lot of noise" I think a lot of steam will be lost.
On the other hand, High Bright/High Res LCD, 4K 60p 10-bit 4:2:2, Dual ISO 800/5000 with 2-3 stops clean ISO up, HD 120p in 10-bit 4:2:2 and 240p full sensor 8-bit 4:2:0... now that's competitive.
Devil is in the details. Sony will hit back hard. Without the right unreleased specs, the camera is just a good answer to a 3 year old FS7. With the right unreleased specs, it's playing hardball with what is inevitably right-around-the-corner from the competition. I don't want to see the EVA1 be too little, too late by the time NAB 2018 rolls around.
fboonzaier
Well-known member
The concept of personal need is not rocket science...it's well understood....however, what matters for me, is that I've been using Panasonic cameras since the DVX100...with a collection of carefully chosen lenses...only 4 of which are Panny M4/3 lenses....the rest ( some 25 + carefully chosen and purchased ) were an investment in PANASONIC'S M4/3 system....so yeah...I feel no interest in this camera because of this one small thing (my lens collection which is far more timeless to me, than another new camera body)...would never shoot anything on a Canon nor their EF glass...and good luck to Panasonic luring away users from Canon who like their IQ and colors now....two very different camps IMO...the thing is....if Panasonic is truly listening to their customer base (the loyal ones) they will surely hear, that I'm not alone in this....if they don't, enjoy the EVA with your EF glass boys....though where the "run and gun" solution with the EVA and EF glass would come into play, is beyond me...anyway...that's not what I need...to me loyalty is a 2 way street!
Retrospective
Well-known member
I hope they get to include an anamorphic lens de-squeeze just like the varicam LT.
Well, I list several other reasons as well. And the last sub-$10K cinema camera Panasonic made was.... the AF100. It's not like that just miracled it's way onto shelves - Panasonic spent a lot of money bring not only that particular model to market, but the underlying sensor tech as well. They remain the only major video company to make a video camera in the MFT sensor size. They spent oodles of money designing those sensors, promoting that sensor size, defending that sensor size, and making lenses for that sensor size.
The result seems to be a gigantic financial loss and huge loss of market share. People want that S35 size sensor. They want that low light capacity. Panasonic gambled on the MFT sensor and came up short.
And now, 7 years later, they've abandoned it for their cinema division. So yes, that is a bit desperate, in part because they've waited so long. The FS7 has essentially the same features as the EVA, but has been to market for 2 plus years. JVC, Canon, Sony, Black Magic - all have put very nice, indie/corporate/wedding friendly cameras to market in the 7 years since the AF100.
If Panasonic had either given us a S35 camera 4 years ago, there'd be 4 years fewer worth of people buying into MFT. 4 years less of total dominance by other companies. There is going to be some negative blow-back on this front from people who were assured Panasonic was committed to the MFT format, the only question is how much. Nikon choice a similar strategy in staking out a market, not in sensor size but video capacity (or lack thereof). And the result of that decision is a company on the brink. Which Panasonic now appears to be in as well...
(it should be noted that Panasonic also bet heavily on 3D, which of course was a giant flop)
You can't help but think that some of that over-long delay in getting the AF100 successor to market (perhaps as much a 8 years when the EVA finally hits shelves) was internal struggle over whether not to stick with their MFT strategy... a strategy that now has clearly been rejected.
In an earlier post in this thread I commended Panasonic for finally biting the bullet. But but waiting so long to do so, they've dug a mighty hole. Is the EVA the camera to get them out? Well, if this camera were shipping right this second it would look a lot better. But it's not. The notion that 6 months (or 8 or 10) span between announcement and drop date is fine because that's how is was in 2010 is straight up silly (and that's assuming it does ship in 6 months). The tech, the consumers, the pricing all moving far too fast for that business model to be terribly effective. We live in a world where making a full length movie using a cell phone is possible. To the generation of film makers looking at doing so, waiting 6 months is beyond an eternity. Heck, I'm 50 years old and I sure don't want to wait. I'm making my company's 2017 3rd and 4th quarter camera decisions now. 4K internal recording is here now. The lenses, the batteries, the media, the editing decisions/upgrades are being made now. I'm sure I'm not alone in that regard....
All of which Panasonic knows. They knew they were going to take a bit of a beating on this, or at least they should have known. Again, the Sony line-up already does 90% of what the EVA promises to do..... sometime down the road. The Canon will do something the EVA won't be able to do, and it will be available by summer's end. And yeah, I presume that Canon video cameras will get more out of Canon glass then a Panasonic camera designed to use Canon glass... which again shows a bit of desperation on Panasonic's part - they've effectively given up on selling their own lenses.
I get the feeling people are assuming the MFT will continue on via the GH series of camera. While the GH5 is great camera, will it sell enough units to keep Panasonic committed to a sensor size they all but acknowledge will not be used in any other pro/semi-pro video camera release? I mean the notion of a AF200 is now totally dead, is it not? Given the market, I think that assuming MFT will last is.... problematic.
Last point - I'm not ruling out the EVA or anything like that. It looks to be a very interesting, very capable camera. But I can't buy one. Can't preorder one. Can't look at footage from one. I can do all of the above for similar cameras from Panasonic's competitors. By choosing this marketing route - one even Barry seems to disagree with - Panasonic invited criticism. Look, if it's shipping by October 1st for $6,500 then heck yes, I'll take a good hard look at it. I want this camera to rule, both for my own use and for Panasonic's own good... but they did kinda crap the bed with this announcement (or "pre-announcement" or whatever they want to label it as).
filmguy123
Veteran
The EF glass and MFT makes sense from both sides, honestly.
However IMO, assuming it would be possible (as has been demonstrated), it doesn't make sense to me to not have an interchangeable mount option to MFT for an additional price. The argument goes that it's not cost effective or it's an overly isolated niche, but frankly it makes a ton of sense. Panasonic is in a unique position making MFT lenses and offering a very powerful M43 camera system with matching colorimetry... it's a chance to make it not a niche product or line. To sell more MFT lenses, GHx cameras, bridge the gap, and offer an answer to Sony's EF to Speedboosted E-Mount. It would be hyper unique, distinguishing feature to Panasonic. There's an indirect financial incentive for Panasonic to strengthen the M43 ecosystem.
Anyway, it's over.
That said, I don't see all the rage against the EF mount. It's an obvious choice at this tier. PL mount option would have been killer, but I can see why they reserved that for the Varicam LT. That alone though should be enough reason to push forward by not crippling other codecs and features. The needs of the typical Varicam LT users preclude the EVA1 from filling it's shoes, and vice versa, most independent operators are NOT tempted by the VaricamLT. I demoed one and decided I wouldn't buy it even for $5k. I simply cannot work with it for my style of work. It's exhausting, heavy, and bulky. It's really a small crew camera.
Zeiss Milvus lenses and Sigma Lenses are great EF options for the EVA1.
However IMO, assuming it would be possible (as has been demonstrated), it doesn't make sense to me to not have an interchangeable mount option to MFT for an additional price. The argument goes that it's not cost effective or it's an overly isolated niche, but frankly it makes a ton of sense. Panasonic is in a unique position making MFT lenses and offering a very powerful M43 camera system with matching colorimetry... it's a chance to make it not a niche product or line. To sell more MFT lenses, GHx cameras, bridge the gap, and offer an answer to Sony's EF to Speedboosted E-Mount. It would be hyper unique, distinguishing feature to Panasonic. There's an indirect financial incentive for Panasonic to strengthen the M43 ecosystem.
Anyway, it's over.
That said, I don't see all the rage against the EF mount. It's an obvious choice at this tier. PL mount option would have been killer, but I can see why they reserved that for the Varicam LT. That alone though should be enough reason to push forward by not crippling other codecs and features. The needs of the typical Varicam LT users preclude the EVA1 from filling it's shoes, and vice versa, most independent operators are NOT tempted by the VaricamLT. I demoed one and decided I wouldn't buy it even for $5k. I simply cannot work with it for my style of work. It's exhausting, heavy, and bulky. It's really a small crew camera.
Zeiss Milvus lenses and Sigma Lenses are great EF options for the EVA1.
Eh, they could have made a GH 4/5 style video camera with the same MFT sensor and mounting but richer on features (Raw, better AF, etc) Whether that would have sold is anyone's guess. Hypothetically speaking, they can still make it (with GH5 serving as a base design).
Of course, there's the c-l.
Of course, there's the c-l.
But then it will no longer be a 2 lb. camera. One of the nice things about this camera is it can be configured the way one needs it (uhh, with the exception of a built-in EVF). It can be stripped down to a box with a lens. Then it can be built up with the side grip, the top handle, the monitor, an evf, shoulder pad, extended grip, and so on. I think it is a nice implementation. Like any camera, it won't suit everyone.
One issue with built-in back of the camera EVFs is that they are not in the correct position for shoulder-type hand-held work. For a shoulder setup, you need an external EVF positioned to the left side anyway. So what might be coming is a diopter for the monitor. The EVA1 monitor is moveable; not attached to the case. So this may be a way to provide an EVF. It does have a removable sun shade, so maybe someone (including Panasonic), will develop the diopter (am I using the right term?) to attach to the monitor.
I really don't think their position is THAT bad right now, the GH4/5 being one of the most popular 4K video cameras (despite being a 'stills' camera) and the growing following of the Varicam LT have revitalized their position in the market, a bit. They also never came out with strictly cinema MFT glass, it's all stills stuff. The logic behind the EF mount is that you're tapping into two markets. One, is the new cine lens market where more and more lenses are coming out with both PL/EF mount options. Going straight PL would've been a bad move because it's PL, expensive and hard to source for the most part. It also means people with a ton of EF glass have an option they already own, glass wise, just like how all those Sony shooters use EF glass too. An FZ mount style option was probably deemed too expensive for this market point.
I suspect management gave up on the AF100, and it wasn't until there was a large shift in thinking within the company that they decided to make the Varicam 35 and could observe the GH series' success. These things move slowly, but no doubt the C200 & EVA exist because of the FS7's success, but after these cameras being released I can definitely see the market slowing down again. They all just wanted to address this price point.
Okey, I get that some people that were hoping for a new MFT camera are disappointed, but in the end I think that we all know that we are in a business that has seen many technological advances the last years. That things change is part of reality. Personally I think it's much better that Panasonic has chosen to go with the S35-size for this camera since that's clearly what many professionals like to work with. The other thing is that the GH5 seems to be a very capable video camera. Why can't it be considered as a sort of semi-successor to the AF100? Still, I don't see any desperation behind their choice. And who knows, maybe they'll make an AF100 successor also?
The thing is that Panasonic gave us an S35 camera 2,5 years ago (VariCam 35) but it's in a different price range than the EVA1. They have also stated that they want to get things right from the start, and that's why they've waited. Owning the LT myself, I'm very happy with the result. Yes, they've lost a lot of business to Canon and Sony, but if someone asks me what I'd choose to work with, I'd say VariCam. So I guess they've done something right (because I'm not the only one having that opinion).
At this point we only know that the price for the EVA1 will be below 8000 US dollars, but let's say it ends up being 5000, will people still be upset? I think not.
Criticism is one thing, but claiming it's desperate that they're releasing a new camera with an S35-sensor and therefore speculating about their finances is another. I honestly can't see what's desperate about them releasing a new camera and giving some of the information about it a couple of months beforehand. Regarding what you said about it being designed to use Canon glass, I'd say it's most likely not. This is more likely: It has an EF-mount because many manufacturers of professional video lenses are also making them with EF-mounts, this includes zoom lenses. It's made to also work with active EF-mounts (which of course includes Canon) and will work with Sigma lenses too (just an example). The only thing I think they've done wrong here is that the mount isn't a locking one like on the LT, otherwise I don't see it as a problem. For those invested in MFT glass, they can for instance buy the photo version of the Sigma 18-35, the Sigma 24-105, and maybe two primes, and they're good to go. The Sigma lenses are very good and not expensive.
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Barry_Green
Moderator
How is it an assumption? I pointed out that they have followed this exact same announce/preview/release process with the DVX100, HVX200, HMC150/HPX170, HPX250, AF100, DVX200, UX180/UX90. It is how they work. There's nothing about it that is an assumption. They announce a product at NAB, they follow up with more details a month or two later, they then announce further details and footage around IBC-ish time. And they've announced a ship time frame of "fall", which is defined as September 21 to December 21. The DVX100, HVX200, HMC150, HPX170, AF100, DVX200, UX180 and UX90 all, every one of them (IIRC), shipped in "fall". They all reached the market between Sept. 21 and Dec. 21, IIRC.
So why is it an assumption? Why is the sky falling, when the company is doing the exact same thing they've done for the last at least 14 years?
I get that some people don't like early announcements -- but your preferences are not indication of "desperation" or any other such negative connotation. I also get that other companies (BMC & Red at least) have been extremely late or even canceled projects after announcement (like the original 3K Scarlet). If you've been burned by those companies, then hey, don't trust those companies, sure... but when a major conglomerate announces their product the way Panasonic does, and has a long track record of meeting their deadlines each and every time, then it doesn't seem like much of an "assumption" to me.
Obviously. That's what they've promised, that's what they've announced, and that is what they will deliver -- it will be available on store shelves this fall. Why would there be any reason to doubt that?
They did. They said it would be available this fall.
To you, maybe -- and hey, you'll interpret the situation however you want. But they simultaneously at NAB said that the GH4 was one of the biggest hits they've ever had, and the GH5 was selling at a faster pace than the GH4 did. They just released the GH5 this year -- just a few months ago! How that constitutes "abandoning MFT" doesn't make that much sense to me. It's clear that they felt that 4/3 was not the right choice for this market segment, and are instead doing the exact same thing everyone else is -- an S35 sensor. It's plainly and clearly and obviously the right choice for this price bracket. I don't like the EF mount, but it's the obvious choice, and that's what they felt the market wanted. Meanwhile, they'll still continue selling 4/3 bodies like the GH5 and selling m43 lenses.
I have watched each announcement closely since 2002 when the DVX100 was first unveiled at NAB. And I disagree 100% with your assessment -- this announcement is fundamentally identical to all of the past ones, and I have absolute confidence that the announcement/preview/release path will progress exactly like the prior cameras did.
To you, maybe. To me, it is a clear example of an established business cycle.
pulpfiction007
Veteran
I'm not against people voicing their opinion about a product, on the contrary, but some comments are just odd. Why are people claiming something is a desperate move or get upset because the presentation wasn't the way they hoped it should be, or claim that the camera is no way nearly finished (as if they have some inside information, which they probably don't have), and so on. Call me crazy, but I just don't understand what there is to be upset about.
They have told us about a new camera that will be available in a couple of months, that likely will be a very nice camera. What's upsetting about that?
I get you on some of those. And it's not upsetting to me. Don't think anyone's truly upset, maybe just underwhelmed by what info was actually released, not by the camera itself. I think expectations were of a shiny new toy with footage available, and it's fine that Panasonic didn't have that, but it is certainly not as exciting as it would have been if they had shown the same exact camera we expect in the fall, but in a completed version. It's all good. Forums are meant for discussion.
Now for a different discussion, there ARE some long time M4/3 users who are upset this wasn't the new AF100 for all the glass they have. I'm not one of them but there are some here for sure.
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