EVA1: Panasonic AU-EVA1! Announcement and latest updates
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Mitch Gross
Veteran
Releasing any product is a tricky thing. You don't want to show it until it is ready to be shown, but you also want to generate interest so that when it starts shipping people are ready to start buying. A manufacturer needs to get its resellers interested and submitting preorders. Sales staff and management need to make sales projections so the factory knows how much it should plan to make per month, but to make those projections we need feedback not just guesses. And then there's the competition, who are always introducing new product of their own. One can't just sit idly by, but one also doesn't want to let the competition know one's plans. And then let's ot forget market forces that have nothing to do with manufacturing schedules: trade shows like NAB and IBC are major benchmarks where everyone is paying attention to what's new. Major educational institutions are making bulk purchase decisions in May/June. In the US and EU, corporations make purchase plans based on spending a budget by the end of the year, December 31. In Japan the end of the corporate (and tax) year is March 31st.
All of this stuff influences when information is released about a new product. It can have zero to do with the technical progress of the engineering and manufacture of the widget.
And yeah, there are various factors which mean that we don't know how much a camera can improve before release. If there are any new components (and in most cameras that's a big yes) then theory and practice are two very different things. New sensor? New sensor processor? What's the heat dissipation design? How have you protected from RF? All of these can affect the image, and even minor tweaks can dramatically improve the image. I was involved in one camera where a minor retrace of the signal processor PCB (not the chip mind you, but the pathways connecting components on the board) improved the noise floor by almost 6db. That's HUGE. So no, early footage is not indicative of what the device may eventually be capable of by release. Just look at what RED was able to do with a year of firmware builds on the R1, and that was without changing any hardware.
All of this stuff influences when information is released about a new product. It can have zero to do with the technical progress of the engineering and manufacture of the widget.
And yeah, there are various factors which mean that we don't know how much a camera can improve before release. If there are any new components (and in most cameras that's a big yes) then theory and practice are two very different things. New sensor? New sensor processor? What's the heat dissipation design? How have you protected from RF? All of these can affect the image, and even minor tweaks can dramatically improve the image. I was involved in one camera where a minor retrace of the signal processor PCB (not the chip mind you, but the pathways connecting components on the board) improved the noise floor by almost 6db. That's HUGE. So no, early footage is not indicative of what the device may eventually be capable of by release. Just look at what RED was able to do with a year of firmware builds on the R1, and that was without changing any hardware.
With the history of firmware upgrades, one has to assume that most designs have some headroom in terms of improvement down the road from the initial release. (confirm/deny)
But, to reply to the quoted portion, is it feasible and/or frequent is it for a manufacturer to upgrade a component for a camera with a long product cycle without calling it a new product? ARRI seems to be on its 4th (5th?) iteration of Alexa. Red has offered replacements/upgrades on its Epic lines. Others have been more content with just firmware updates upon the demand for them. Canon had its DPAF upgrade to the existing cameras and then changed the model (C100/C300) specs to include the feature as well.
Mitch Gross
Veteran
Plenty of manufacturers have changed internal components along the way in a production model without changing the model number. If it's a big enough change they'll change the model.
Can you tell us anything about Panasonic's sensor manufacturing capabilities? How many of their cameras do they manufacture sensors for? Do they get other foundries to do it like RED, or is it in house? I always found this aspect of things interesting, especially since Panasonic and Sony are the only companies recently breaking new ground in terms of dynamic range and sensitivity.
Mitch Gross
Veteran
Yeah, not gonna share that one. Sorry.
NorBro
Major Contributor
On paper, Blackmagic and RED are breaking new ground with 15 and 16.5 stops, but everyone will test cameras differently.
The LT claims 14 and most people have said it's every bit of 14 whereas people throw around 13-14 for C300's 15. (B&H's description says C-Log3 will provide 14, but I could have sworn Canon was claiming 15 once before.)
The LT claims 14 and most people have said it's every bit of 14 whereas people throw around 13-14 for C300's 15. (B&H's description says C-Log3 will provide 14, but I could have sworn Canon was claiming 15 once before.)
Thinking maybe I could find something on the web about this, a Google search lead me to this statement on an official Panasonic website:
"Panasonic image sensors allow creation of new lifestyles that make social life impressive, secure, and safe."
If that is the sensor used in the new camera, I think it will sell rather well
puredrifting
Major Contributor
Thinking maybe I could find something on the web about this, a Google search lead me to this statement on an official Panasonic website:
"Panasonic image sensors allow creation of new lifestyles that make social life impressive, secure, and safe."
If that is the sensor used in the new camera, I think it will sell rather well
If this new camera will do that, as well as get rid of this wave in my hair and tone my abs, I am in.
Samuel H
Major Contributor
I don't like using numbers for this because everybody measures them differently and they end up meaning nothing.
According to this test that I summarized here, the 5D3+H264 has 8.5 stops, and the GH4+VlogL has 10.5 stops. I wouldn't consider those "high DR", in my mind they are the cameras that people use when they don't care much about DR. If you care a lot about DR, the minimum standard right now I think is a6300+Slog2 or Slog3, at 12.5 to 13.5 stops. Anything less than that, and I won't even consider it, because the a6500 is there, and the a7S II is there, and even the RX100 is almost there (I measured mine just half a stop short of the a7S+slog2).
But I wouldn't switch just to stay the same. What I want in my next camera is to match the DR of the BM4.6k, the FS7 or the C300II, which (IIRC) are all about a stop better than the a6300+slog3. The Amira and the Varicam LT are just sligtly better than those, but I think the difference is not even one stop (it's actually more qualitative than quantitative: highlights are equally not blown out, but just before blowing they look better on the Amira and the Varicam).
According to this test that I summarized here, the 5D3+H264 has 8.5 stops, and the GH4+VlogL has 10.5 stops. I wouldn't consider those "high DR", in my mind they are the cameras that people use when they don't care much about DR. If you care a lot about DR, the minimum standard right now I think is a6300+Slog2 or Slog3, at 12.5 to 13.5 stops. Anything less than that, and I won't even consider it, because the a6500 is there, and the a7S II is there, and even the RX100 is almost there (I measured mine just half a stop short of the a7S+slog2).
But I wouldn't switch just to stay the same. What I want in my next camera is to match the DR of the BM4.6k, the FS7 or the C300II, which (IIRC) are all about a stop better than the a6300+slog3. The Amira and the Varicam LT are just sligtly better than those, but I think the difference is not even one stop (it's actually more qualitative than quantitative: highlights are equally not blown out, but just before blowing they look better on the Amira and the Varicam).
Alpha Beta Omega
Veteran
I would really have patience when it comes to new camera purchases. A Sony one will be announced in August and Canon are due in October/November with competitive products to the Panasonic.
Danilo Del Tufo
Well-known member
Any info about new Sony camera? I think Canon will upgrade the EOS line, with a C100 4K.
There's a lot of publicly available info on Panasonic designed and manufactured sensors. It's a publicly traded company after all and there are a lot of financial rules and regulations that address various tidbits of information that trickle out from the HQ.
Of course, a lot of it is retroactive. The key here is what the engineers have decided to put into this camera and what the corporate executives ended up approving at the planned price (point).
fboonzaier
Well-known member
Re DR I believe that Panasonic rates their camera's DR probably the most conservatively...I remember when the RED 1 initially came out, I think the company rated it at +13stops (speaking from memory here)...when DPs started discussing it on REDuser, they seem to find it more in the 9-10 stop range for example....I'm guessing a conservative 13+ stops on the mystery cam
Run&Gun
Veteran
Whether this is the same camera that Osslund is referring to or not, I don't know, but I was told post-NAB, that there is a "high-end" Cine camera coming from Sony. Think F65 "replacement".
Mitch Gross
Veteran
Again, are you speaking as fact or from your own personal conjecture?
What part of the market does Sony really need to address though? Between the FS5 and FS7/FS7II they've got that area locked down in terms of solutions. I guess the F65 is getting long in the tooth, but even the F55 hasn't made much headway in the features market despite some compelling features.
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