Pana Mojo vs. Sony Sharpness

frisco said:
It is my view, That there is no "One" camera that is perfect for everything. If you have a job that requires features that your camera is not good at...... Rent the one thats better !

frisco
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Unfortunately, when shooting on a regular basis, renting becomes to expensive.
 
I see why the EX1 should be better compared with the 150, because of long GOP recording formats.

But my initial post was not about recording formats, but rather picture quality, in the sense of visible resolution and clarity.
So if the 150 would give my that ultra clear HD look (videoish or not...) the EX1 offers, I´d buy it immediately!
 
A side note . . .

"There is no need for pixel-shifting or other gimmicks that attempt to trick you into thinking they are hi-def cameras – because they are true hi-def cameras."

http://www.internetvideomag.com/Articles_2008/090208_SonyHD_Camcorder.htm

Gee, I wonder what this guy is referring to (Panasonic HVX200/HVX200A/HPX170). That's almost like saying the EX1/EX3 isn't "true hi-def" because of its low Mbps, GOP recording format. There is so much ridiculous "information" out there.
 
I'm thinking that the sensor size from 1/3 (HVX) to 1/2 (EX1-3) is making more difference in the imagery. The first impression you get when you see EX footage is the sharpness, But I also see a "bolder" image like you see in 16mm to 35mm to 70mm.

The other issue is that we have a mixed crowd here. Allot of true starving film makers doing wonderful things with these "small" cameras and facing impossible financial undertakings looking for that break into big well funded projects.

Some of us come from the commercial side of things. We have specific rates we charge for our talents and we can charge back rentals and expenses with a mark up back to the client.

Both are valid users of these cameras. It is sometimes hard to tell from a posters comment which end of the spectrum the opinion is coming from.

frisco
 
frisco said:
I'm thinking that the sensor size from 1/3 (HVX) to 1/2 (EX1-3) is making more difference in the imagery. The first impression you get when you see EX footage is the sharpness, But I also see a "bolder" image like you see in 16mm to 35mm to 70mm.
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Both higher perceivable resolution and better depth of field control are inherent differences between the EX1 and the inexpensive Panasonic cameras, so if you can benefit from either of those qualities the EX1 is worth a look. And you could use the HD-SDI outputs of the EX1 to capture high-bandwidth, non-GOP footage exceeding the technical qualities of DVCProHD material. But that still doesn't get you the "look" that Panasonic offers unless you can tweak EX1 footage to meet your needs, which would require some experimentation. On the other hand, there's nothing you can do to make footage from 960x540 sensors have the clarity of a camera with full HD resolution, and that's a limiting factor for Panasonic.

As far as the HMC150 and affordable solid state recording are concerned, the best comparison so far there is to the Sony Z7U - not the EX1. The HMC150 looks promising for those who want flash recording on a budget, but the AVCCAM workflow appears problematic with today's computers compared to HDV. So as usual we have a variety of trade-offs between cameras with no one best solution for every situation, and we each have to make our choices based on budget, personal preferences and other considerations. And there's still room for new cameras with different design trade-offs which haven't been addressed yet, like a Panny camera recording AVC-intra on SD cards for under $4K or a Sony camera using XDCAM-HD for a similar price.
 
Kevin Shaw said:
And there's still room for new cameras with different design trade-offs which haven't been addressed yet, like a Panny camera recording AVC-intra on SD cards for under $4K or a Sony camera using XDCAM-HD for a similar price.
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I don´t think cameras like this will come from the two big ones. They have to make trade-offs to their high end systems. (Pany at least gave us DVCpro50/HD...)
JVC and Canon, both lacking a high end productline, could really jump in here.
Both still use tape and HDV. But I would bet, the next cycle from these companys will incorporate some sort of solid state recording format at the most (probably inexpensive SD cards) and no higher end recording format.

My dream cam: 1/2" FullHD CCD Chips, HVX style body, EX1 LCD, EX1 Lens or interchangable like XLH1/EX3, HVX variable framerates, HVX "look" presets, EX1 "clarity" presets, AVCintra 4:2:2 recording format with 10bit internal processing,
inexpensive solidstate recording media like SD cards.

The EX1 has that clear HD picture, that and the manual lens and the highres LCD would justify a purchase for what I´m doing.
BUT since no client ever complained about the HVX´s output in the last two years, as a bussinessman I just can´t justify to buy another small formfactor camera with other shortcommings at this time.
This thread helped me make up my mind, thanks!
 
Spartacus said:
BUT since no client ever complained about the HVX´s output in the last two years, as a bussinessman I just can´t justify to buy another small form factor camera with other shortcommings at this time.
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That's a fair business conclusion, and you still have the option of renting an EX1 or other full-HD camera when you need it. The other thing to consider is whether you could benefit from the more affordable recording format (and longer record times) of the HMC150, which would likely mix well with your HVX200 cameras. Just be sure you understand the workflow requirements before buying the HMC150, as AVCCAM footage may have to be transcoded to an intermediate codec for effective editing.
 
Sure the HVX200 has some shortcomings, but I still think that its general technology is pretty impressive and holds its own even when comparing to Sony's EX series. From how things are shaping up, I think the HPX170 is going to be a fantastic cam. And don't forget about its HD-SDI output - uncompressed HD at 10-bit and 4:2:2.
 
Regardless of the camera, I feel it's really a bad decision to market solely or atleast in large part, through your camera. The majority of clients cant tell the footie difference from one cam to another. What they know are the industry names and what's hot and what's not, but they also know good solid footage. I think the largest leap has already been made.. in going from SD to HD, and now it's incremental increases... but as so many people have reported, it's more about personal taste and likes than just sharpness or even mojo. If the cam is a pain to work with, then it's less of a choice. LIke, for example, I love my SD9 camera, but it's a pain to transcode and taxes my system. I still use it, but not for fast turn around pieces. It's become my glovebox cam..

cheers to all
 
Very good point. And I certainly know the camera that I like to use. No complaints from clients. :)
 
A few months back a client came up to me and asked "what had happened?" I say "What do you mean?". "Your films look so much better than they did a few years ago."
So I went back to my archives the next day. I didn´t change, but I got the DVX, then the HVX and since I used those 2 my films looked indeed to have a mojo I could never reach with my SONYs.
My 2 cents.
 
I own an HDX900 and have an HPX170 on order. I have recently been using/evaluating an HVX200A and an EX1 with my Letus Ultimate. It's been great having these three cameras together(as well as an HPX500 briefly).

My findings:

The HDX900 is very fast(as is an HPX500, which is quieter than a 900), but noisier than any of the other cameras.

The EX1 is the resolution king at 1080/24p, but 1.5 stops slower than a 900 at 1080/24p,
however, the EX1 is so quiet you could shoot at +3db and not be noisier than a 900 and
be close on sensitivity.

An EX1 at 1080/24p with an Ultimate is similar to a 900 and HD ENG zoom lens in resolution.

The 200A can cut well with a 900, especially on non-wide shots.

I have only been evaluating live images from HD SDI, or component in the case of the 200A.
So, I don't know what effect the different codecs have on the final product.

I do believe people get too hung up on bit rate, ie; DVCPRO HD at 100Mbps vs. XDCAM HD or EX at 35Mbps VBR. You can't compare DCT compression(DVCPRO HD, HDCAM) to MPEG2 compression, which is 2.5 times more efficient. However, the I Frame vs. Long GOP and
4:2:2 vs. 4:2:0 colorspace must be considered when comparing DVCPRO HD to XDCAM HD or EX.

Bottom line for me is that the EX1 has the most resolution of any sub-$10K camera I've ever seen, it's also very clean. On the HDX900, Panasonic had to tweak the preamps to make the ASA 500 rating. So, one must shoot at -3db for the 900 and for the EX1, I would
have no hesitation in shooting at +3db, yielding a more similar ASA for both cameras.

My opinion of Panasonic's pixel shifting in the 200/200A/170/500 is that it works very well
indeed, with little in the way of artifacts, however, you can't expect it to do what a native
full raster imager can do resolution wise--this is why the EX1 excels in that regard.
 
Gia sou Spartacus,

here is the easy going solution for your "problem" ...

Like you I''m a quality fanatic. ;-)

I currently sold my HVX and ordered the new HPX171 - not the EX1 or 3!

The solution:
Use "ReSizer" without scaling. Set the quality button to "Best Sharp" and the smoothness button fix to the value 0.7. Sharpness you set to "O"! Now the important point: "Fine Tuning" you set in relationship to the individual scenes to the value "85%" till "100%".

And then you will experience a big surprise: ReSizer does this job without any additional noise, but the sharpness now is absorbing and really on the same level like the EX1/3.

I tested the same procedia with photoshop CS3 "Unsharp masking" with 30%, but the achievement was not good (double contures and much more noise), so "ReSizer" are my two cents.

Best wishes

Jurgen
 
Is the ReSizer a PS PlugIn or is it in FCP? Could you please elaborate a little more on this, it sounds like sth a lot here would be interested in...
:dankk2:
 
Hi!

ReSizer 2.0 (digital anarchy) http://www.digitalanarchy.com/resizer/main.html
is a plug in tool made to scale (particularly sd to hd) video.
You can use this plug in in FCP, AE and also in Motion.

I bought it to scale old 4:3 footage to 16:9. A good friend of mine and me made some tests 'cause we were - like you - a little unhappy about the limited resolution of the hvx.

After a while we checked out that this tool is a fantastic tool - not only primary for scaling - also secundary for sharping video without any scaling.
After done our tests we were very surprised about the high quality result.
As I said before: Best sharpness, no signifant additional noise - and no double contures IF you set the fine tuning individal for each scene. Also important and not as amazing as it sounds: The "Sharpness" has to be set to "0", because it is for the scaling job, NOT for sharping!

This job you do with the "Fine Tuning" button. My kolleg (friend) and me are absolut lucky with this solution. We still using our beloved HVX (and a little later HPX) but don't need to buy the Sony 'cause the better resolution. Try it and you will see. A big defizit of the pana doesn't matter anymore!

Best wishes

Jurgen
 
Epilog:
I am sounding like an publicist of digital anarchy.
I should get some money from this company. What do you think? ;-)
 
MediaMovie said:
Epilog:
I am sounding like an publicist of digital anarchy.
I should get some money from this company. What do you think? ;-)
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Hehe, yeah try it!

Hm, we bought in InstandHD when we still had the XL2, but I will check the ReSize out for sure, thanks!

Edit: seems since RedGiant bought DA, there only was room for one scaling plugin - ReSize is not available anymore, only InstandHD:(
 
I am so much more interested these days in the HMC 150 than the 170.. based in large part on the price and what that difference will allow me to by in addition. I just can't wait to get my hands on one.. at this price... I'm willing to take another chance.
 
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