FS5: Paid RAW Upgrade in June 500€ / 600$

I gotta be honest here… I have absolutely no idea how to select 2K RAW on the Odyssey. Between Sony and CD, there is a distinct lack of any kind of instructions as to how to set things up. In my menu setup on the FS5, I only have the option of sending 4K RAW (60p, 30p, or 24p) out the SDI. And on the Odyssey, I don't see any option to record 2K RAW, only 2K ProRes. So maybe that option isn't available yet in the newest Odyssey firmware.
 
FS RAW -> RAW (DNG) works for both 4K & 2K. To get to the 2K, on the camera you use the S&Q menu. When you're in RAW output mode the controls are different coming out of the camera here. It either outputs 4K HS burst (100p or 120p) or it goes to 2K HS and you can get frame rates up to 240p. I have not had a chance to make a setup video for FS5 & Odyssey yet and plan to do so this week. But in the meantime it is very much like the menus on the FS700, so the videos linked below should help guide you. We also have a setup guide for the FS5 available for download on our website.

https://vimeo.com/118184104

This is also helpful (general RAW to DNG setup):
https://vimeo.com/118183605

And another, shorter demonstration of High Speed 4K/2K RAW to DNG:
https://vimeo.com/102646980
 
Thanks for the heads-up, Mitch. I'll take a look at that tomorrow when I'm on-set.

Mitch Gross said:
FS RAW -> RAW (DNG) works for both 4K & 2K. To get to the 2K, on the camera you use the S&Q menu. When you're in RAW output mode the controls are different coming out of the camera here. It either outputs 4K HS burst (100p or 120p) or it goes to 2K HS and you can get frame rates up to 240p. I have not had a chance to make a setup video for FS5 & Odyssey yet and plan to do so this week. But in the meantime it is very much like the menus on the FS700, so the videos linked below should help guide you. We also have a setup guide for the FS5 available for download on our website.

https://vimeo.com/118184104

This is also helpful (general RAW to DNG setup):
https://vimeo.com/118183605

And another, shorter demonstration of High Speed 4K/2K RAW to DNG:
https://vimeo.com/102646980
Click to expand...
 
Okay, strictly for fun and to test malleability of image. Out of ACR, and not a proper, finessed grade in proper software. No masks or windows. These are of Stephen's 3rd posted DNG.

First is "as shot" from the camera for reference:

APS_DAN_045_000000002.jpg

A grainy '70s film look:

APS_DAN_045_000000004_70sFilm.jpg

Strictly subjective to my taste:

APS_DAN_045_000000005_ToTaste.jpg

A brightened up / daytime look:

APS_DAN_045_000000006_Bright.jpg

And finally, a day-for-night look:

APS_DAN_045_000000007_Day4Night.jpg

The stained glass window is a great element for this kind of testing. It shows the latitude and limits of the camera nicely. Of course, normally it would be controlled with a mask in grading, but again, this is just for fun out of ACR. Would love to see others!
 
May I point out the massive amount of data available in that stained glass window? Especially without color shift or fringing?Pixel-peeo that one kids!
 
There's no question that there's way more usable picture info in these CDNG's than in the lower bandwidth Quicktimes, as you'd hope from the data rate. Sony and Convergent have done an incredible job of delivering a very usable digital camera negative. Nothing left to do but go out and shoot!
Mitch, I saw that convergent posted some LUT's that can be used in Resolve to flip them back to S-log, and correct some small errors in that workflow. When do you think the next firmware is coming so that those won't be necessary?
Thanks!
 
So whats the verdict?

Is FS5+raw the FS7 4K killer?

Im thinking about getting a RED camera for raw, but if FS5 and the Odyssey does almost the same job...
 
A red camera certainly has it's advantages, more frame rates, probably more dynamic range, etc. But with the Sony solution you don't have to crop to get high frame rates.
 
After spending the last three days shooting with the FS5/Odyssey RAW combo, here are my thoughts (for what they're worth)…

RAW is amazing. I've owned a RED (Epic MX), and a couple of Blackmagic cams, so I'm familiar with what RAW can do. That said, the way Sony (and Convergent Design, of course) have tapped into the sensor to deliver what this kit delivers feels every bit as impressive as looking at my first RED RAW image. Is the FS5/Odyssey going to compete with the latest sensors from RED and Arri? Maybe it's not quite in that rarified air. But the FS5 RAW gets you a look that, to me, doesn't feel that far from what those industry-leading tools are delivering.

Now, as great as RAW is (on this or any other camera), it doesn't mean you don't have to do your job. Underexpose it (like I did on a few shots, some purposely, others not), and you'll get noise when you correct the levels. That's not a surprise, as anyone who's shot RAW has probably learned to expose to the right (or push the exposure to clipping, then dial it back so nothing is lost).

Does this make the FS5 an "any camera killer?" I think that's impossible to answer. It always comes down to what you're shooting, what your budget is, and what your limitations are (post, schedule, etc.). Would I pick the FS5 for a commercial shoot where Alexa was an option? Probably not. But with RAW, the FS5 gets to punch way, way above it's weight class. And shooting RAW makes you never want to shoot any other way, that's for sure.
 
Hey Stephen,
Thank you so much for sharing your images and impressions. How are you setting your exposures? The waveform seems to be an excellent tool for exposure, but I'd love to hear your thoughts.
Thanks again!
Sam
 
SamEd said:
Hey Stephen,
Thank you so much for sharing your images and impressions. How are you setting your exposures? The waveform seems to be an excellent tool for exposure, but I'd love to hear your thoughts.
Thanks again!
Sam
Click to expand...

For the most part, I keep the histogram on the FS5 screen for quick reference, and pull up the waveform on the Odyssey when I need to. That gives me two tools to quickly judge where I'm at and what needs to be tweaked.
 
Stephen, what are your thoughts on the dynamic range especially when shooting raw? Whether in comparison to the internal recording, other cameras, or just in general?

Thanks!
 
hoju said:
Stephen, what are your thoughts on the dynamic range especially when shooting raw? Whether in comparison to the internal recording, other cameras, or just in general?

Thanks!
Click to expand...

Well, the DR for RAW recording is clearly better than the internal recording. Just looking at the bullet-holed Mitchell County road sign DNG I posted bears this out. I can't give you any quantitative measurements, but from the eye test, I'd say it feels two stops greater than the stock FS5. Now, like any digital image, the more you push it the more you'll see issues. But it seems to me RAW is definitely delivering more.

In general terms, I'd say it feels more like a RAW file from the original 5D or 5DII. Maybe there's not quite that much latitude in terms of color correction, but that's how it feels to me.

As for comparing it to other cameras, I'll have to leave that to other, more technical minds. For me, having the ability to shoot RAW that's even in the same ballpark as much bigger and more expensive cameras, while still having the form factor of the FS5, is a massive win.
 
SamEd said:
There's no question that there's way more usable picture info in these CDNG's than in the lower bandwidth Quicktimes, as you'd hope from the data rate. Sony and Convergent have done an incredible job of delivering a very usable digital camera negative. Nothing left to do but go out and shoot!
Mitch, I saw that convergent posted some LUT's that can be used in Resolve to flip them back to S-log, and correct some small errors in that workflow. When do you think the next firmware is coming so that those won't be necessary?
Thanks!
Click to expand...
We already have our standard LUTs that match the ones included in the PRESETs menu inside the Odyssey LUT System (just hold the LUT button for a few seconds to get into the menus). The matching LUTs on ou website can be loaded into your post system (most people use Resolve) so that you get the exact matching result as what you saw on the Odyssey OLED and can then make adjustments from there. We've always had that.

The new LUTs on the website are because we found that the sensor in the FS5 behaved slightly differently than on the FS700. It's so small a difference that you probably wouldn't really notice on regular footage and would just grade around it as part of your regular adjustments. It's pretty minor differences. But because we like to make things as technically accurate as possible, we have these "FIXED" LUTs available for download. You can use our LUT Converter App (available for free on our website) to load them into your Odyssey and you can also then use the same LUT directly in your post program. You can do all of this today. When you download the program it includes instructions on how to transfer the LUTs, and it's pretty simple stuff.

We will likely have this and other material all included in the next firmware update. That should be later this summer, but no promises!
 
Stephen Mick said:
Does this make the FS5 an "any camera killer?" I think that's impossible to answer. It always comes down to what you're shooting, what your budget is, and what your limitations are (post, schedule, etc.). Would I pick the FS5 for a commercial shoot where Alexa was an option? Probably not. But with RAW, the FS5 gets to punch way, way above it's weight class. And shooting RAW makes you never want to shoot any other way, that's for sure.
Click to expand...

Thank you for the inputs.

I already own the FS7, but think its a little on the heavy side for some docu work that i do in rural areas hiking with a backpack. The FS5 would be a nice addition.

Im probably buying the O7Q+ to get 4K 4:2:2 from my a7S on a gimbal now. So the added cost of the FS5 is minute, and to get the raw out of it will cost what, 1/5 of the cost that getting Scarlet-W will. Sure, the Scarlet has some things coming for it, i havent chosen yet.

But is the FS5 4K raw a serious upgrade from the FS7 4K XAVC-I?
 
Martin.G said:
But is the FS5 4K raw a serious upgrade from the FS7 4K XAVC-I?
Click to expand...

You can answer that question by yourself: You owned the FS700/7Q before. The DNG files should be quite similar to the FS5/7Q. Would you choose FS700 DNG over the FS7 XAVC-I?
 
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Mitch,
What would you say are the differences are between the RAW files from the FS700 and the FS5? Color? Sensitivity or noise?
 
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