FS5: Paid RAW Upgrade in June 500€ / 600$

Chad, if what you want is continuous high frame rate recording in Apple ProRes, currently the ONLY device that offers this is the Odyssey7Q+ (with the Odyssey RAW Bundle option). 4K60p and 2K240p from the FS5/FS7 with RAW output. These are not in the specs for the original Shogun or the Shogun Flame. The Shogun Inferno is not yet shipping.
 
Thanks Mitch, I know that. The Inferno is due out in July, and the RAW Upgrade is in June, so I can wait. I'm not in a hurry. The Odyssey seems clunky and bulky to me. I'm not interested in that, especially if I have to pay an extra 750.00 to use all it's functions. I'm going to see how the Inferno plays out, then decide if the Shogun Flame is enough, or if I'll flip for the extra 300.00 for the Inferno.
 
Chadfish said:
Thanks Mitch, I know that. The Inferno is due out in July, and the RAW Upgrade is in June, so I can wait. I'm not in a hurry. The Odyssey seems clunky and bulky to me. I'm not interested in that, especially if I have to pay an extra 750.00 to use all it's functions. I'm going to see how the Inferno plays out, then decide if the Shogun Flame is enough, or if I'll flip for the extra 300.00 for the Inferno.
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There is definitely a number of us who would prefer a smaller solution.
That being said, I'm not sure the Inferno will be any smaller or less
bulky than the Odyssey. I think they both have a 7 inch screen.
 
Is the Inferno going to be bigger than the Shogun? The Shogun has a 7" screen and is smaller than the Odyssey. Here's a good comparison video using the Shogun V1.
 
Quick result: The Like the Shogun a lot more than the Odyssey, and that's the old Shogun. With the new Shogun's 1500 nit monitor, it's a no brainer to go with Atomos.
 
To me the killer feature of the Odyssey 7Q is the 4K to 2K super sampling. Which means I can get really great looking 2K (or HD) ProRes for times when 4K is not necessary. That saves you a ton of hard drive space...
 
To me the killer feature of the Odyssey 7Q+ is that it's been as reliable as a hockey puck.



And the updates that CD has provided. Prores444HQ for free was a real treat...
 
Owned a few atomos products(samurai/ninja blades, shogun). The O7Q+ was my first recorder / monitor NOT made by Atomos. I would say they aren't even in the same class.. The atomos is plastic, primitive and A LOT more "clunky" then CD's O7Q. Besides, any 7" monitor is going to add some heft to your package. Your best bet is too invest in a quality mounting solution and cables.
 
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Chadfish said:
Quick result: The Like the Shogun a lot more than the Odyssey, and that's the old Shogun. With the new Shogun's 1500 nit monitor, it's a no brainer to go with Atomos.
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I didn't know the Shogun was smaller, it looks like it's 7.1 inches instead of 7.7,
I like the smaller size.

That being said, either this is an older video, or these guys just got a lot wrong.
The Odyssey is NOT limited to ProRes HQ, it will record in LT to HQ. The Odyssey
is also no longer limited to proprietary SSDs....you can buy cheap Samsung
drives, so these guys are wrong in a couple places.

Moreover, you need to look at what they are actually comparing. They
are comparing video (using HDMI) to a GH4 or A7s. Currently the Odyssey
works much better than the Shogun for a FS700 (which I have been told
are the same codecs you will get with the FS5.). That means you will get
4k raw, super sampled to HD.....which gives you some of the best HD video
that you will ever see....period. These 'reviewers' never mention this.....
presumably because they are more concerned with DSRs and not proper
cinema cameras (which they claim cost 'like 30 thousand dollars'....
even while their screen shot shows a $15,000 C500.....which is now
even cheaper!). Seems to me, that the original Shogun was aimed at
DSLRs, while the Odyssey was aimed squarely at the more professional
cinema cameras....like the FS700, FS7, FS5, Canon C300 MarkII and
C500. The FS700 options (which will be the same ones you will get for your FS5)
are: 4KRaw or Pro Res, 2K Raw or ProRes and fantastic supersampled
HD) at frame rates up to 240fps for HD or 2k and 120 for 4k. Shogun just won't
do those things. I'm not trying to be mean but those guys in that review
are either looking at an early version of the Odyssey (because it has improved
a ton through firmware updates) or they are just biased or clueless. I am leaning
toward the second as they don't mention any of the Odyssey advantages when using
a proper cinema camera.....which makes me think they are DSLR shooters who don't
know the advantages an Odyssey has when shooting with a C500 or FS700.

However, the Inferno has that nice HDR screen, and has some confusing
(to me) claims about recording frame rates of 120....and possibly 240fps.
So it might be worth waiting and seeing what that one is like when it comes out.
From what I've seem, it looks nice, and if it has the HFR, it might be the real
competitor to the Odyssey.
 
The Shogun Flame does have the HDR screen for 1695.00. That video is older, and the guys are DSLR shooters. Anyway for use with the FS5, the Shogun is great, and if you want HFR (which I do) then the inferno has that for 300.00 more. But also there is the audio inpits, which are better on the Shogum as well as the GUI, and the screen resolution. The Atomos stuff just looks better to me, as least for what I want. I'll probably mostly shoot ProResLT anyway.
 
Chadfish said:
The Shogun Flame does have the HDR screen for 1695.00. That video is older, and the guys are DSLR shooters. Anyway for use with the FS5, the Shogun is great, and if you want HFR (which I do) then the inferno has that for 300.00 more. But also there is the audio inpits, which are better on the Shogum as well as the GUI, and the screen resolution. The Atomos stuff just looks better to me, as least for what I want. I'll probably mostly shoot ProResLT anyway.
Click to expand...

I really like the 'looks' of the Inferno as well. And if it does, what I hope it does, I may get
one myself. What do I mean by that? Well the marketing on it is a little unclear to me.
It says it records 'HD at 240fps'. Great.....but the FS700 and FS5 already do that internally.
So what I want to know is, does it record 240fps using the 8bit codec or does it do what the
Odyssey does, and take the 12 bit Raw and supersample it to HD? Because the normal
output on the FS700 for example, is a 8 bit 4.2.2 signal. SO you get better color space than
the internal 8 bit 4.2.0 signal but you really can't tell the difference. HOWEVER, when you take
the 12 bit Raw and supersample it down to 10bit 4.2.2 ProRes....that's when you can see the
difference. I hope that is the way the Inferno is getting the 240fps HD, because it is a bit unclear
as it is now.
 
Currently, the FS7's XAVC-I 4K internal recording is far superior to its RAW output through the optional XDCA. Even the ProRes on that unit is a much better option for XDCA output, as the RAW clips the highlights, for example, and fails to convey the FS7's entire dynamic range.

What evidence is there that the FS5's RAW output will be any different? Have they changed the nature of that RAW output by implementing a Log profile or will it have the same problems that currently plague the FS7's 12-bit linear RAW? If they haven't changed anything, then there is really no point to this whole enterprise of taking a portable FS5 and turning it into a rigged-out monstrosity just for the purpose of a compromised RAW output. With these modular RAW cinema cameras coming out such as Raven and Terra, there is just no advantage to rigging an FS5 as these cameras do everything internally and at higher resolutions and bit depth (at least, in the case of the Raven). Moreover, they can be dressed up and down depending on the occasion and are not fixed into some unwieldy combination of recorders and wires going in all directions!

If one must have a Sony cinema camera in this price range, it has to be the FS7, which already provides a beautiful 10 Bit LOG image and is the best all-round camera for under $10K (with the title of best portable cinema camera under $10K going to the Canon 1DC). In most cases, RAW is simply unnecessary and overrated. As a BMPC-4K shooter, I find that 12 Bit RAW is necessary because of that camera's limited dynamic range and the need to recover highlights and shadows in post. As a result, I always shoot in CinemaDNG RAW, with resulting file sizes of 12 gigabytes per minute! What I would give for a camera like the FS7, which provides better images than my camera and with the added functionality of a proper documentary and cinema workhorse, all in a space-efficient codec. And to top it off, it looks and feels like a Super 16mm Aaton, which seems like its exact design lineage. In any case, the FS7 is a gorgeous machine!

Moreover, the FS7 does not require RAW at all because the camera already has an incredible dynamic range and color space in 10 bit XAVC-I 4:2:2 when used in the Cine EI mode. In short, if one is concerned with the overall image quality that a camera delivers out of the box, the FS7 is likely a better option than the FS5.

Sony is only dangling this RAW "upgrade" in front of our eyes because the FS5 has had so many problems already and has been a bit of a disaster for their reputation as a manufacturer of reliable cameras that work perfectly from day one. The company also feels pressure coming from the Ursa Mini RAW cameras and needs to retain its market share in the $5K "prosumer" range.
 
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You can already match the FS7 with the current FS5 and the current Atomos offerings, as shown in this video. Using a SHogun reduces the noise of the FS5 to the point that it's cleaner than the FS7. Anyway, I bought the FS5 for it's size, and for a ot of stuff, it's no big deal to have a Shogun attached, as half of the draw is having a great monitor to see what you're shooting with. It's not a big deal to have a 7" monitor attached to your tripod or camera with one SDI cable. The Shogun stuff starts around 14 minutes in. This video was made in 2015 before any FS5 Updates came out.

 
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I watched the comparison video, but what was most striking was the lack of rolling shutter or any artifacting on the FS7 pans and the image quality of XAVC-I vs. ProRes, which is a lot closer than it should be given the discrepancy in the data rate. The XAVC-I is truly an efficient and high-quality codec as implemented on the FS7. At 6400 ISO, there is no noise to be seen!

As for the FS5, its internal (10 bit?) HD mode is now producing some beautiful footage after the firmware update fixed all the bugs:



I would hope that the RAW upgrade builds on this quality and doesn't undermine the camera's dynamic range as with the FS7 RAW. If the FS5 offers a proper RAW 4K DCI (4096 x 2160) output without any of the FS7's RAW issues, I will definitely rethink my Raven deposit as I do love the FS5/FS7 platform for its functionality, its magnificent sensor (inherited from the glorious F5), and its speedbooster and lens mount options. 4-channel audio and built-in ND are just icing on the cake!
 
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Questions to Mitch

Questions to Mitch

I have some questions to Mitch but also to others - and I think it is great that Mitch contributes here with his Background.

Convergent Design statet for the FS5 some time ago:
Upon release later in the year (in November according to Sony) the Sony FS5 will output QFHD (UHD) 3,840 x 2,160 video in 4:2:2 10-bit up to 30p via HDMI. The Odyssey7Q+ will record this in Apple ProRes in 422(HQ), 422 or 422(LT). The FS5 will also offer output of S-Log2 and S-Log3, which are fully supported in the Odyssey7Q+ LUT System.
Click to expand...

https://convergent-design.com/compa...-sony-fs5-with-uhd-prores-and-future-raw.html

So, is it really true that you expect that the FS5 will be able to deliver HDMI Output with 10bit 422? Most sources state that the FS5 is limited to an HDMI Output of 8bit 420 due to the HMDI 1.4 (?) of the FS5, and I wonder what is true now. But it could be true, because also the GH4 offers 10bit 422 without HDMI2.

But with the upcoming raw upgrade for the FS5 - will it be possible to use slog2/3 without the hmdi Output?

Second question: what is the Advantage that we expect from the raw upgrade of the FS5? I mean, the conversion from 12 bit Sony linear raw to 10bit ProRes 422 seems to be tough also for the FS7 - there has been some tough discussions about that. Do we expect that the conversion from Sony raw to 12bit CDND will improve the Situation, or will the Limitation be the 12bit Sony raw anyway?

A lot of questions that are at the core of this thread here!
 
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I'm not 100% up on all this, but that article is really old. The RAW upgrade will use the SDI jack instead of the HDMI.
 
Sure, I know that. But the question is if something will happen with the HDMI port too. Will it be possible to deliver 10bit 422 slog3 to an external recorder at all? Because raw may not be the best choice always.
 
wschmid said:
Sure, I know that. But the question is if something will happen with the HDMI port too. Will it be possible to deliver 10bit 422 slog3 to an external recorder at all? Because raw may not be the best choice always.
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Well, I think there is a decent chance, that you may be
able to get great, downsampled 10bit 422 HD from the raw
signal. The Odyssey 7Q+ does this with the Sony raw signal from
the FS700. It also gives you 4k ProRes from the 4k raw signal.
You don't have to use the raw, just because it's through the SDI
port instead of the HDMI.
 
I am not interested to downsample to HD. I shoot only in UHD. My point is simple that not every time Sony raw will be the best choice, especially in the darks. There can be slog better. Or in lowlight I would prefer to shoot to rec709. But whatever it is, I expect that the camera delivers the footage at 10bit 422 at least. And with the outdated 1.4 hdmi of the FS5 that seems to be not possible.

I have the first Shogun here and use that with the GH4 to get 10bit 422 with vlog UHD up to 30p. But for 4K 50p /60p I will have to upgrade to the Q7+ or the Shogun Inferno anyway. But I will do that only if it makes sense to me.
 
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