FS5: Paid RAW Upgrade in June 500€ / 600$

Kinok said:
Currently, the FS7's XAVC-I 4K internal recording is far superior to its RAW output through the optional XDCA. Even the ProRes on that unit is a much better option for XDCA output, as the RAW clips the highlights, for example, and fails to convey the FS7's entire dynamic range.
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By definition i find this very unlikely. Certainly not in anything i've seen.

RAW would give you everything but perhaps the post workflow wasn't correct?

cheers
Paul
 
wschmid said:
I have some questions to Mitch but also to others - and I think it is great that Mitch contributes here with his Background.

Convergent Design statet for the FS5 some time ago:


https://convergent-design.com/compa...-sony-fs5-with-uhd-prores-and-future-raw.html

So, is it really true that you expect that the FS5 will be able to deliver HDMI Output with 10bit 422? Most sources state that the FS5 is limited to an HDMI Output of 8bit 420 due to the HMDI 1.4 (?) of the FS5, and I wonder what is true now. But it could be true, because also the GH4 offers 10bit 422 without HDMI2.

But with the upcoming raw upgrade for the FS5 - will it be possible to use slog2/3 without the hmdi Output?

Second question: what is the Advantage that we expect from the raw upgrade of the FS5? I mean, the conversion from 12 bit Sony linear raw to 10bit ProRes 422 seems to be tough also for the FS7 - there has been some tough discussions about that. Do we expect that the conversion from Sony raw to 12bit CDND will improve the Situation, or will the Limitation be the 12bit Sony raw anyway?

A lot of questions that are at the core of this thread here!
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This was a mistake, and it was mine. In UHD, the FS5 outputs 4:2:2 8-bit, not 10-bit.

The upcoming RAW output update will not change the video output of the FS5. However, what can be extracted from the RAW is far greater than what is available in the video signal. The 12-bit RAW data will yield a proper 10-bit video signal that the Odyssey7Q+ can capture in Apple ProRes.
 
Mitch, thank you very much for this clearification! Iappreciate that really. So no change in the hdmi interface. Beside the conversion to 10bit ProRes, I think there will be also the possibilty to capture to CDNG. Do you expect here a significant better quality compared with the convsion to ProRes?
 
paulcurtis said:
By definition i find this very unlikely. Certainly not in anything i've seen.

RAW would give you everything but perhaps the post workflow wasn't correct?

cheers
Paul
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Cinema5d has a nice article on the FS7 RAW problems with a XYLA comparison that demonstrates the reduced DR in the FS7's RAW output:

https://www.cinema5d.com/sony-fs7-raw-issues-found/

As someone who doesn't own the FS7, I found this RAW issue unlikely as well, but it has been discussed at length by FS7 users on this very forum:

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthrea...-problem-It-s-all-gone-a-bit-80s-Michael-Mann

I've also seen examples of it in the FS7 RAW footage, such as in the highlight clipping and reduced DR evident in this video:


I just hope the FS5 does not have the same problems because it is also outputting 12 Bit Linear RAW. ProRes on the FS7's XDCA seems to work perfectly fine, so perhaps that is the better option.

I wish I could justify the expenditure of the $16K F5 and its glorious 16 Bit heaven. After all, it's only $1,000/Bit!

As it is, I may have to settle for the Raven I have already ordered with its pseudo "16 Bit precision."

In truth, Sony should have offered 12 Bit Log output on the FS7/FS5's RAW just like the Ursa Mini 4.6k.
 
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All I want to be able to do is to record UHD at ProResLT 10 Bit 422 on an Shogun Flame or Inferno. Will we be able to do that?
 
It is my understanding that the FS5 is much more like the FS700 than the FS7. The FS700 has one of the best pictures from any camera if the SonyRAW 4K out is recorded in the Odyssey as Prores.

I think the FS5/Odyssey combo is going to be a fantastic upgrade in the pic quality of the FS5, that in my mind is already very good.
 
What do you think is the difference between the FS7 and the FS700, in terms of the raw output?

Thank you for the links - I have also seen some reports the FS7 has some issues with Sony 12bit linear raw.

But I do not know why the FS5 should be better here

Nor do I know why the conversion from Sony raw from the FS5 should be better to ProRes compared to the conversion from Sony raw to CDNG? Why should that be?

That was the reason that I have asked Mitch about the hdmi interface of the FS5. Because if that will work for 8bit only, you can foreget it. And the SDI is 3G only - means that it works either for HD or the data transfer for raw. Ok, but then you have no way to avoid Sony raw, and my only hope was that the conversion to 12bit CDNG could be better then to 10bit ProRes.

So at the end of the day we do not know yet. But frankly spoken, my impression is that this does not look great really.
 
wschmid said:
What do you think is the difference between the FS7 and the FS700, in terms of the raw output?

.
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The FS7 is very different then the FS5, it needs the back to get raw. The 700 and the 5 are more similar from what I understand. Do some research on how fantastic the FS700/Odyssey combo is, lots has been written about it. I no longer have my FS700, but back when I had it I loved the combo.

I now have the FS7 and FS5 and they are very different in every way. I like both of them a lot. But IMHO the quality of the FS700 and Odyssey ProRes was better than either the 7 or the 5, so I am very curious to see what can be done with the new FW in the 5.

At this point we just don't know, it is all speculation and as we all know the boards are full of it...
 
But one point we know for sure: both the Q7+ and the Shogun will support the conversion from Sony raw to ProRes and also to CDNG for both the FS5 and the FS7. For me that means that the structure of Sony raw from both the FS5 and FS7 will not be different really. So we can assume that both will be 12bit linear log. Means that both will have the same limitations but also the same strength very likely.

Sure, that is still speculation. But I think this is very likely to become true.
 
wschmid said:
I am not interested to downsample to HD. I shoot only in UHD. My point is simple that not every time Sony raw will be the best choice, especially in the darks. There can be slog better. Or in lowlight I would prefer to shoot to rec709. But whatever it is, I expect that the camera delivers the footage at 10bit 422 at least. And with the outdated 1.4 hdmi of the FS5 that seems to be not possible.

I have the first Shogun here and use that with the GH4 to get 10bit 422 with vlog UHD up to 30p. But for 4K 50p /60p I will have to upgrade to the Q7+ or the Shogun Inferno anyway. But I will do that only if it makes sense to me.
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You are not understanding here.....you keep mentioning the HDMI port. The
FS5 does not have to use the HDMI port! The HDMI port may only be able
to output 8bit 4k. But the SDI port is capable of outputting 12bit 4k raw...which
is what it does on the FS700. That 12bit 4k raw, is then converted to 10bit 4k Pro Res
by the Odyssey 7Q. So it doesn't matter what the HDMI port can do. You say you need
4k, 10bit 4.2.2 but not Sony raw? Great! As I said chances are you will get it with the FS5....
and an external recorder which uses the SDI port to extract a 4k ProRes signal from the
Sony 4k raw stream. It's already being done with the FS700, there is a good chance it's
going to work with the FS5. And not only that, but the quality is amazing!
Dont get caught up in what the HDMI port can do or what the FS7 problems are.
The FS5 is more similar to the FS700 ('buffered HFR' and no back needed just a
cable from the SDI port to the Odyssey) and if the FS5 implementation is anything
like the FS700's.....(and I would bet it's going to be)....it will be great.
 
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The FS700 did not have the same problem with RAW output because it had less dynamic range than the FS7. The problem with the FS7 RAW output, according to those links I cited above, is that it tries to fit 14 stops of DR into a 12 Bit linear container.

The FS5 most certainly has the same wide dynamic range as its twin the FS7, so it will have the same problem in 12 Bit linear RAW. ProRes, however, is a different matter and seems to work very well on the FS7 through the XDCA unit to internal recording or to an external recorder such as the Odyssey.

For the amount you are spending on the FS5 and the RAW recorder, you might as well as just buy an FS7, which has a beautiful image and a highly efficient codec that rivals ProRes LT.

Just look at the stunning highlight roll-off and colors that the FS7 achieves through its internal XAVC-I codec:


It's an amazing performance in a very small and manageable file size relative to RAW or ProRes.
 
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Oh I understand quite well that the hdmi board is not suppoted with more then 8bit 420 by the FS5, what is a shame since even the much cheaper GH4 is able to deliver 10bit 422 with hdmi 1.4b up to UHD 30p. But you do not understand that by using an SDI 3G port you will not be able to get slog3 for UHD, but only the 12bit linear Sony raw what has limitations in the dynamic range. And you will see those limitations in ProRes too, generated from the Sony raw. Choosing the FS5 could be wrong if the limitations of Sony raw are the same as with the FS7, but not having the good 10bit XAVC of the FS7 as an alternative.
 
For various reasons I cannot comment directly to all of the details of what is and is not going on in these different cameras and how that may or may not effect the outcome. But let me state a few things:

The sensor design is essentially the same (generational upgrades) between the FS700 to the FS7 to the FS5.
In RAW data at the sensor level, the FS700 and the FS7 have the same potential for dynamic range.
The big difference between the FS700 and the FS7 is the XDCA back, which is used to extract the RAW data, concatenate the signal and record back HD ProRes to the FS7.
The FS700 and the FS5 do not use the XDCA back or an equivalent thereof.

The Odyssey7Q+ will be able to record all resolutions and frame rates from the FS5, and it will do so in both CinemaDNG and Apple ProRes.
 
Although it shares the same Sony Super 35mm sensor as the FS7/FS5, the problem with the FS700 was that it could never demonstrate more than 11-12 stops of DR in regular internal recording. For example, here is a DR test from AbelCine that shows precisely 11.5 stops:


When users went to an external recorder using 12 Bit RAW, they noticed no compromise in the dynamic range. Instead, the image quality was much improved in every way, including dynamic range, noise performance and color information.

Yet the precise opposite has occurred so far with the FS7 because its internal 10 Bit Log recording appears to capture more of the sensor's dynamic range than the 12 Bit output through the XDCA. I hope that Sony is able to remedy this situation first and foremost for the FS7 because the FS7 deserves to have as good RAW as the FS700:


Obviously, the FS700 RAW using the Odyssey was absolutely gorgeous relative to its internal recording. I can only hope that when the FS5 receives its RAW upgrade it performs more like the FS700 than the FS7. The insightful comments from Mr. Gross above lead me to believe that such a positive outcome may indeed be a good possibility for the FS5.
 
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If the XDCA is the reason for the lower performance of the Sony raw from the FS7, then there is hope for the FS5 with external recorders maybe. If this feature works up to 4K 50p/60p then the FS5 is still an interesting camera. Otherwise it is outdated a little bit, and I could stay with my actual GH4. ;)
 
RAW on FS700 offers greater dynamic range.

On FS5, Odyssey7Q+ offers
4K60p, 2K240p, 4K120p bursts
all in CinemaDNG or Apple ProRes (HQ/422/LT).
 
Mitch Gross said:
RAW on FS700 offers greater dynamic range.

On FS5, Odyssey7Q+ offers
4K60p, 2K240p, 4K120p bursts
all in CinemaDNG or Apple ProRes (HQ/422/LT).
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Hmmm....EXACTLY the same as what is offered on
the Odyssey from the FS700.  Everyone who is
worried about the quality of what you will get from
the FS5, because of what you get through XDCA back
to the FS7.....here is a hint. The FS5/Odyssey 7Q+ offers the EXACT
same frame rates and codecs (including the 4k120 burst!)
that the FS700/Odyssey 7Q+ does. If I were you, I'd be
looking at the FS700/Odyssey 7Q+ as the example of what
you will be getting, instead of the FS7/XDCA back.........which
is what I've been trying to say all along.
 
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