p2 vs firestore

p2 vs firestore

  • Firestore

    Votes: 17 28.8%

  • P2

    Votes: 42 71.2%
  • Total voters
    59
PaPa

PaPa

Major Contributor
I am sorry of this has been discussed to death, but from the search i can only find information bout technical aspects, but i am curious to know what are the pro's and cons of choosing firestore versus p2 or vice versa, especially because the immense difference in price/storage space.

Could someone please simplify this for me? I will be considering dropping the xh a1 soon and i want to move away from tape (so looking at the hpx170.)

Thanks.
 
I hate the firestore, hate it. I shot with one for a while, then moved to P2 cards. Now, whenever I have to shoot with the firestore, I dread it.

I don't want to get into the specifics about why I dislike firestore, I have my reasons.

P2 all the way, no question about it.
 
im asking specifically for the pros and cons so please indulge me and go into the specifics.
 
PaPa said:
im asking specifically for the pros and cons so please indulge me and go into the specifics.
Click to expand...

ok here it goes.

Firestore Pros
-Lots of storage space
-Quicktime PN mode

yup, that's about it

Firestore Cons
-Crappy battery life, especially in cold weather
-Delicate, hates vibration
-Bulky, unwieldy
-Terrible for ENG shooting, or outdoor shooting
-I've lost footage using it
-I am always on edge when I use it, expecting something to go wrong

P2 pros
-easy to use
-no hassle
-tough as nails
-no moving parts
-I've never had an issue with them
-small
-great work flow
-work great in any condition

the list goes on

P2 cons
-EXPENSIVE
-Relatively low record times, 16gb 44minutes in 720p24pn mode, not bad.
-Need a laptop to dump to if you only have one card available to shoot on and run out of space. (not really a con)
-can't think of anything else at the moment.

Most of those cons are personal opinion, but I think many will agree. I've never had any issues shooting with P2 cards, ever. I have had my fair share of issues with the firestore that were pretty significant including lost footage and a day of shooting ruined. Both of which would have been avoided if I were shooting P2.
 
PaPa,

I have the complete opposite opinion of the Firestore. I never shoot without it. That is, unless I'm taking the camera underwater or sticking it out of a helicopter. It's incredibly reliable whether shooting in a studio setting or outside in the midst of nature (which is where most of my filming takes place). Never had any battery issues. Never lost any video. Never lost a connection. If properly operated and connected to the camera in a secure fashion the Firestore is very dependable. That's as simple as using velcro to attach the firewire cable to the Noga arm holding the device. In about two years of using the FS-100 it has never let me down.

I highly recommend it.

Jim
 
DM & Jim,

Thanks for the honest opinions. Seems that people either LOVE the FS-100 or they HATE it. There is no in between. Our local rental house is not too happy with theirs but a local production company rents it all the time and loves it (uses it as a 2nd to their own) -

Guess I need to go rent to form my own opinion. Either that or go drop $3k on a 64 gig P2 card :)
 
You can put me down in the HATE category. I know that there are people who like, love, and adore the FS-100. I am not one of them. I think it totally changes the whole way you work with the camera, instead of an elegant/tiny/self-contained/compact/reliable/flawless/rugged workflow, you end up with a clumsy, cabled, noisy, separate-battery-powered, don't-you-dare-drop-it workflow.

With P2, you bite the bullet and buy some cards and ... well, that's it. You don't ever really worry about it again. I mean, I had two 4gb cards for a couple of years, finally got an 8, and now with my 170 I have a 16. I don't know that I would ever really need more. In fact, I don't even know that I need the 16, but hey, it came free with the camera so I'm not arguing. :thumbsup:

The FS-100 has exactly one advantage, in my mind, and that's capacity. But with a couple of 64GB cards (available by the end of this year) you'd have more capacity on-board in P2 than you'd have in an entire Firestore! (and yes, I know they now make bigger firestores, but how much capacity do you need? Two 64GB cards give you almost six hours of continuous 720/24pN shooting time.)

So, yeah, I don't like the FS-100. I don't like the noise it makes, I don't like the bulk it adds, I don't like the cabling that you have to juggle, I don't like that you can't play back clips by thumbnail, I don't like that it doesn't do the metadata, and I really don't like the "organize P2" step that it makes you do, especially when I'm having to work tech support and find that someone forgot to do that... grr.

On the other hand, if someone is strictly an FCP user, the FS-100 does offer an advantage in that it can record directly into the FCP Quicktime format. To me that's still a non-event though, because if I was using FCP I wouldn't use Log & Transfer anyway, I'd use MXF4QT or Raylight and keep the files in their native MXF format for cross-platform or future compatibility. And besides, that converting-to-quicktime thing is strictly an unnecessary and artificial workflow limitation forced on you by FCP, so I refuse to bow down to it just on principle if nothing else. But that's just me. :)

Now, with that said - for those who love their FireStore, and who have never had a problem with it, more power to you. I'm glad you have a working solution. I'm not telling you that you don't. But as a preference, I'd take the solid-state recording over the hard disk recording any day, in a heartbeat.

If someone *needs* the capacity that only a FireStore can provide, then they've already answered their question. But if you don't have that specific need, then I would take the P2 system every single time without hesitation.
 
Love the Firestore? No!

I would have a big list of improofments.

But beeing always on a tight budget it offers the most recording time for the buck.

I heard that poeple got in trouble (especialy usig Quicktime) - but since the last firmeware upgrade it´s solid like a rock. It never let me down, no mater weather or temperature.

Having it mounted to the camera, size and wight is a no brainer for me - it even makes the consumer looking HVX more Pro-Looking in the eyes of a client.

Never had battery problems. As long I´m close to a wall socket I run everything (camera, monitor, firestore andwhatnot) from current anyway.

One cable more or less at the set, thumbnails, metadata? Who cares?

Pressing that "Organize P2" button is absolute no problem, and it always worked like a charm (at least on my PC with CS3).

I make a housing now, that let me swap chap harddrives for even more cheap capacity .

P2

I don´t like the idea that I have to carry a laptop with me to offload the cards, (I would rather record to the laptop via Onlocation), I don´t want to spend so much money for so view capacity.

The little bit of convenience (in my book) I get of the P2s is not worth the price.

Having said that, I have to add:
The Firestore is not worth the price either, but the economic solution I can afford.

I´m waiting for the Cineform Recorder that - records directly in Cineform Format on cheap SD cards or (at least I hope) cheap solid drives.

Imagine you have a solid drive that holds hours and hours of Cineform material for 300 bucks.
Perfect for recording and storage.

I have a dream....

....yeah, I know.

Frank
 
Hate the Firestore. As stated, only advantages are cheaper and more capacity. For some, that is a lot. But not for me. I do a lot of run and gun shooting, shooting where there is a lot of vibration that would KILL the Firestore. In fact, shooting in the midst of a battle recreation and a camera guy was bumped into dozens of times. That would have ended the shoot if we had the Firestore. And in the HEAT...hard drives hate heat. COLD...hard drives can seize up. I have dropped my P2 cards, I have stepped on one.

The only battery you have to worry about is on the camera.

I would never rely on the durability of a hard drive as a recording medium for shooting. Not even a stationary one (say, shooting a locked down camera at a live event). P2 is 10 times more reliable.
 
Barry, how often do you find yourself shooting 720 solely because of capacity? I can't imagine shooting anything other than 1080 for serious projects.

But at the same time, in 720 mode you get the vast array of different frame rates, correct?

If you do shoot in slow motion, do the majority of people shoot in 720 and then uprez in their editor to 1080, or will 720p still look good on the big screen?
 
I shoot 720p all the time. Mainly because the HVX and HPX are B Cameras to our Varicams. And we use the variable frame rate all the time, and that is only available at 720p. We deliver 1080p HDCAM masters, and have had nothing but success.
 
An addendum to my earlier post regarding my love of the Firestore. When I can get the same amount (or more) of recording capacity as my 100 gig Firestore (without having to offload mid-way) I will re-think my workflow. That does appear to be coming around the end of the year. Shooting to a pair of 64 gig P2 cards would certainly lead to more mobile filming. However, if the camera's not on a tripod I'm not a happy person (unless the camera is chasing action).

As things stand now the Firestore is bullet proof for me (knock on wood). I keep reading posts from people who say the Firestore is noisy. I must be one of the lucky ones in that respect as well.

Jim
 
PaPa said:
If you do shoot in slow motion, do the majority of people shoot in 720 and then uprez in their editor to 1080, or will 720p still look good on the big screen?
Click to expand...

I've done spots broadcast in theaters by National Cinemedia - delivery is 720p and it looks gorgeous. When I shoot 1080 I generally edit in a 720p timeline anyway for the flexibility of larger framesize from the 1080 if I need to reframe or move around on the image.

As much as 1080 is touted as being king, well shot 720 IMO can equal or surpass it to many degrees.
 
but when you say you shoot in 720 and deliver a 1080 master, what exactly are you doing, how is this possible?
 
Cross convert when we output with the AJA Kona 3 card. But there are other ways too. Output to DVCPRO HD tape, then cross convert using a Terranex or Snell & Wilcox at a post facility. Just so happens that the card I use to capture can upconvert and cross convert. I bought it for that reason.

And does it hold up? Yup...played it back on a 20' theatre screen from a Christie 2K HD projector. Looked NICE. Mixed Varicam and P2.
 
i guess im asking more of a question, if your final output is going to be 1080, why not shoot in that format?
 
One major con to add to the Firestore category, in my opinion, is their lousy customer service and their lousy attitude towards their customers, in my opinion.

I bought the very first Firestore for my DVX100 and couldn't believe how rude they were to me at NAB when I tried to ask them questions about it.

I was amazed at how I was not informed of the recall for the unit based on the batteries, etc. When I finally learned of the recall from their website, they said that the opportunity to take advantage of the fix had passed. What's the purpose of registering your product with a company if they don't notify you directly of recalls?

Anytime I use a client's Firestore, the exterior is usually falling a part.

seriously, they will never get a dime from me again.

That being said, my original firestore is still operating and the exterior is not broken. I am usually in danger of breaking my fingernails off every time I try to remove a battery & always at about 7 minutes of operational time, the fan kicks in and it is as loud as a hairdryer so it can only be used with MOS shooting material...

So, I am thrilled to be using P2 media now, regardless of the cost in comparison to the FS.
 
i'm in the both category. like most said, there are times when the firestore is beneficial, then there are times when its not. for sit down interviews, tripod shots and stuff like that, firestore is perfect for what it does. on the run, i prefer p2 media.
 
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