P2 Shenanigans

lol.. sorry was browsing quick and looked at and posted the wrong thing. .. doh!

anyhow again to be fair she refereence the "list price"
i agree that it seems like a big jump in cost , but you also have to fatcor in the cost of the little raid configuration thats probably the size of 2 pennies, and all the very strict testing that the specific cards used in P2 have to meet. they do not utilize off the shelf SD cards.. but rather ones that are manufactured and tested for tolerances of 0 defect.

again i think that the price could .. should..will come down with time.. but right now theres probably alot that has to be recouped for the intitial R+D and other aspects of the new technology. im not in disagreement with you about the cost seeming high. but the option is wide open for ANY company to make the P2 cards.. and sell them for as much as they want.. as long as the cards pass panasonics quality restrictions and regulations. so if it can be done cheaper.. it will. i wouldnt worry about it too much.
 
This isn't consumer technology like other cards.

This isn't consumer technology like other cards.

Doesn't strike anyone else as being odd that no-one else is making P2 cards right now?
Bet it won't take long for that to change. They will come by the time the camera is out.
 
Dear bilgami,

Here is most of the e-mail I sent to Sandisk (retailsales@sandisk.com). Unfortunately I don't have the name or e-mail of the product manager, so I don't know if it will get to the right person. Perhaps more people should send similar e-mails to Sandisk and Lexar:

>Important - Please forward this e-mail to the Sandisk SD card product manager
>
> To:
>
> Dear Sandisk SD card product manager,
>
> In case you are not aware of this, Panasonic is
> selling P2 memory cards (a 4 SD card Raid 0 in a PC
> Card enclosure) for video cameras at a very high
> price
> and Sandisk can probably be more competive and still
> make a good profit competing against them. Panasonic
> says that each SD card inside a P2 has to have at
> least a 60x speed. They are currently selling the
> 4GB
> P2 card for $1750 and are not selling a 8GB P2 card
> yet.
>
> I just checked the BH PHoto site and they are
> selling
> Sandisk 2GB Ultra II SD cards for $199.95. The specs
> mendion 60x speed. If you multiply that by four, for
> a
> 8GB P2 card and add some $200 of extra cost, we
> would
> have a 8GB P2 for about $1,000.
>
> The Sandisk 1GB SD Ultra II is selling for
> $94
> so considering that Panasonic is selling the 4GB P2
> card $1750 - that is a $1374 margin over 4x1GB SD Utra II cards
>
> There should be a very strong increase in the sales
> of
> P2 cards when Panasonic starts selling the HVX200 HD
> camcorder by Oct/Nov. So I suggest you look into
> manufacturing and selling Sandisk 4GB and 8GB P2
> cards. ....
>
> Regards...
>
 
johnc said:
If the HVX was smart enough, could it record to the first P2 card until full, switch to the second P2 card, and while recording to the second P2 card dump the contents of the first P2 to the HD. When the second P2 is full, it switches back to the now empty P2 #1 for recording and dumps the P2 #2 to the HD. So on and so forth, never stopping and giving a long continous record time.
Click to expand...
Even if the HVX could do this, it may not be able to offload the data fast enough, at least in 1080p24 mode. Panasonic's AJ-PCS060 is a portable hard disk–based unit that can transfer the contents of a 4 GB P2 card in about 4 minutes -- or about as fast as it takes to fill the card at 1080p24; presumably, it would take about 8 minutes to offload an 8-GB card. I doubt that data transfer via USB or FireWire would be any faster.
 
Thanks Bilgami! If enough e-mails are sent to Lexar and Sandisk, perhaps one will get to the SD product managers! I would be nice to have 8GB P2 cards for $1000 or less.
 
p2 card

p2 card

[font=&quot]BiLGaMi Video Productions[/font][font=&quot] :thumbup::thumbsup::beer:[/font]

No Prob maybe its a good idea to send those emails every now and then so maybe we can flood them in and hopefully one will be read.[font=&quot]
[/font]

[font=&quot]bilgami@hotmail.com
http://www.bilgamivideo.com[/font][font=&quot][/font]
 
Endurance_Man said:
I have already sent an e-mail to Sandisk, which I hope will reach the SD card product manager. I am trying to show strong arguments to convince Jan to lobby the Panasonic P2 card product manager.
Regards,

Endurance_Man
Click to expand...

Guys this is not a decision that we make. If another company wishes to make P2 cards, they would approach us and we would show them what it would take. There likely is a liscensing thing that has to take place. It all falls back to the manufacturer as to whether the market is there or not there to engage in the R & D for a P2 card.

There is no petition necessary here. It only has to be a desire from the other side.

Much like the NLE guys. We are willing to work with others, they just have to be willing to work with us.

Best,

Jan
 
Dear Jan,

Thanks for posting. It is quite impressive that you read the postings and answer. Congrats!

It is clear that Panasonic does not decide for Sandisk or Lexar, and that is why we sent and will send more e-mails to them, hoping they will decide to produce cheaper P2 cards.

It is good to hear that Panasonic is willing to license the technology!

My original e-mail was just to point that the margin on the P2 seems extremely high given the cost of its major component. Perhaps Panasonic will decide to decrease the margin in order to increase the volume, help the sales of HVX200s, and make us all happier.

Cheers,

Endurance_Man
 
Endurance_Man said:
My original e-mail was just to point that the margin on the P2 seems extremely high given the cost of its major component.
Click to expand...

The key word is "seems," point is you don't know. The truth is that the margin is low. Everyone seems to think that the cards cost nothing, and that is only part of the major components. That the LSI costs nothing, that the die-cast costs nothing, that the assembly costs nothing. Everyone wants to point at Panasonic and think we must be just raking in the green on this. Not true. Stand in my shoes, and you will know.

Best,

Jan
 
Dear Thisiswells,

I don't think this is quite the chicken or the egg case. If Panasonic (or Sandisk or Lexar) do not bring down the price of P2 cards, it will slow down the sales of HVX200s and that incremental sale will likely go to Sony (HDV) and other competitors. So it would probably make sense for Panasonic to bring down the margin of P2 cards in order to help sell HVX200s (which also have a margin that otherwise would be lost for the incremental volume not realised). If Panasony decided to wait for the HVX200 sales (and other P2 camcorders) to increase in order to justify decreasing the margin on the P2s, they would likely lose a lot of HVX sales. Of course it depends on where they expect to make most of their margin, on the HVX or on the P2 cards. If they want to make most of their margin on the P2 cards, they will likely keep a higher than necessary price and charge high licensing fees if Sandisk or Lexar want to produce P2 cards.

Regards,

Endurance_Man
 
Jan_Crittenden said:
The key word is "seems," point is you don't know. The truth is that the margin is low. Everyone seems to think that the cards cost nothing, and that is only part of the major components. That the LSI costs nothing, that the die-cast costs nothing, that the assembly costs nothing. Everyone wants to point at Panasonic and think we must be just raking in the green on this. Not true. Stand in my shoes, and you will know.

Best,

Jan
Click to expand...
Dear Jan,

I have to use "seems" because as an outsider I don't have access to the costs. Having graduated in 1988 in electronic engineering with a focus on digital systems design, I certainly do not think that LSI costs nothing, that the die-cast costs nothing, that the assembly costs nothing.

However, having some notion of these other costs, I would say that I find it extremely surprising that you can buy 4GB (4x1GB) of 60x SD cards for $386 (96*4) and the 4GB P2 sells for $1750. If the costs are so high and the margin is small, please accept my apologies for my wrong estimates.
Cheers,

Endurance_Man
 
Dear Jan,

If the required additional costs to make a P2 card from SD cards are so high, it "seems" that there is at least one more cost efficient technological option that would achieve the same objectives of high speed and reliability using existing memory cards.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=356017&is=REG

You can buy today for $445 a 4GB Sandisk Compactflash Extreme III (link above), high shock/vibration/temperature resistance 20MB minimum read/write speed. So you could have a two Compactflash RAID 0 implemented in the camera (it would read directly two compactflash cards in parallel - with the RAID 0 implemented in the camera) achieving 40MB+ minimum speed which is higher than four SD 60x in RAID 0. On the computer front, it would be easy to build RAID 0 readers to plug in and read two Compactflash in parallel, possibly with a PC card interface such as the P2. So 8GB would cost $950 right now, using off the shelf memory cards and no need for the additional cost or for an additional memory enclosure (P2). You could have four slots for Compactflash (which of course is smaller than a P2) and use pairs of Compactflash (at least until they double the speed of those). That "seems" better than a 4GB P2 card for $1750. You may say that the reliability specs of the P2 are higher, but those of the Extreme III are quite high and the cost difference is enormous.
Cheers,

Endurance Man
 
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