Out of pure curiosity..

imag said:
The low end of quality film making has already been democratized. Canon beat RED, and so did Panasonic and now Sony.
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I do not believe this to be entirely true yet. I acknowledge the wonderful tech your referring to and the important role it's playing in the "process" of democratisation - but that process has been going for a long time - and while the finish line is now excitingly in sight - we're still not there yet. Not if you want to talk in true terms of democracy
as the fact remains a lot of practicing Indi film makers can't actually afford an FS100 or the like.

Magnificently improved as things are, there are still cost vs technological barriers to entry for projects targeted theatrically that can generally only be overcome by exceptional levels of quality content. When the only genuine barrier is story/content then the democratisation will be complete.
 
I must say, I have been really watching Scarlet's progress (non-fixed) but as an ENG camera. This is going to need an adapter for broadcast lenses, but at least it is not an optical expansion to a larger chip size. I see Scarlet as a camera I would probably never need to upgrade from if they get it right. Plenty of resolution and RAW is worth the wait and a worthy upgrade from an EX-1/HPX ilk camera imho.
 
right! Eng lenses are made for 2/3rd's sensors.. This would be highly functional/modular!
 
Instead of the fixed lens, they should fix the sensor. 2/3rds, what a joke. It goes to show how long it's been since announced, back then the 2/3rds was actually considered big. Now the thought of that seems funny. Dont get me wrong, it will still be a cool camera for shooting adult films, or weddings. But for narrative work, why bother, the Canons, and pani seems the better choice for me. Im just glad Sony and Pani released a big sensor camera first. Hopefully it will humble them a bit. God knows they need it.
 
It sounds like you're thinking along the lines of the old quote about how film will not be a true democratic art until it is as cheap as paper and pen. And I agree. I do think a good filmmaker can do more with a HD phone camera than a crappy filmmaker can with an Arri. Phone cams are at this point pretty democratically distributed. But the super-cheap stuff will never look as good as the high end - because the bar will just keep moving. When a phone cam can shoot like an Alexa, Arri will have something out that is holographic, and so on.

And the context was the Scarlet, which is going to be at least in the same ballpark costwise as the cameras I mentioned. And any of the cameras I mentioned can put artful results on a big screen if they are used well, and that's what it is ultimately all about.
 
I would also like to point this out: audiences are not the gating factor for democratic film in terms of image quality. DPs and industry professionals are the issue there. We say that the content should matter, but then we rip apart anything that doesn't look flawless.

The reality is that most audiences are happy with youtube levels of quality. They don't sit in dark rooms; they don't care about 14 stops of latitude; they don't give a hoot about artifacting. Go look at how bad are the DIVXes that most people perfectly happily download.

There are a number of other factors that hold back indies - marketing, co-branding, and content being three big ones. I don't think the image quality is the biggest issue now. People watch movies on iPods, for god's sake...

Anyway, sorry about the digression.
 
We all watch a lot of interesting documentaries on NETFLIX that are full of bad white balance, jerky camera work, poor exposure, grain, you name it , all things we would bash ourselves against the wall out of guilt if we produced images like that, but there on NETFLIX "professionals" are doing it and the everyday viewer couldn't care less. However, if you did those things for a wedding video for them, they would hang you. I can't wait to be a professional!
 
I think that the democratization comes when you as a DP and director can tell the story you want with the cinematography you would like to. A S35 sensor allows dof control and low light that a 1/3 or phone camera cannot. Small sensor camera shot films always go for a "Dogma" "verite" look for a reason.
 
Was excited about Scarlet+/Epic-S in the corporate event niche. Now jumping to FS100 because:

1) Easy post on quick turnaround stuff without further investment in Red Rocket and the rest.

2) Recession moving into second dip, clients not yet willing to pay for extra quality in my little niche.

3) Red is concentrating, quite rightly, on high end where there's big bucks from a relatively small camp first.

4) Clients ARE now asking for a DSLR look - but DSLR revolution for me was a move in mentality from fixed glass to a wide choice of interchangeable lenses. Despite this, can't switch to 100% DSLR in my neck of the woods.

So, sorry Ted, sorry Red, sorry peer group, whilst I aspire to Epic S ownership, I'll re-examine the situation in a couple of years' time as I need to get on with producing what my clients will pay for, not what I desire.
 
A quick glance through Reduser and you'd quickly stumble upon the concept of 'futureproofing' your projects by using Red cameras. There's part of me that hates to admit it but they're right. Red is thinking long term though and I think the winning argument is it's both long and short term.

In the short term one could come off SDI into a Prores capture device the way everyone is talking about with the F3/FS 100 and put the RAW files up on the shelf. So why wouldn't the post process be just as easy? Then the cool part: we would all like to think that everything on the shot list or storyboard is shot just so, but the reality is the ability to reframe later is huge. Steadicam shots with the extra elbow room of 4/5K is also a huge bonus. So you could go back to the RAW files just for those situations (and a few others come to think of it).Add to that the possibility that down the road if one were to produce something that stood the test of time the project could be re-edited to fit the resolution flavor of the day. At the price point of an F3 at 12K an Epic S also has the advantage of a DSLR size and form, though a bit heavier. Then there's HDRx....

Damn, I'm talking myself into waiting again. I hate it when that happens.
 
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Depends on what you are shooting. Most of the stuff I do in the moment is commercials - they are obsolete in 6 months or a year at best.

So nobody want´s to invest in future-proofing here.
If you shoot a feature, thats an other game.

Frank
 
Frank, you don't think the ability to reframe a shot and keep it in hi def would be an advantage for a commercial client? Considering the sometimes ridiculous amount of control they like to have over a project I would think it would be a big hit.
 
Absolutely.
Don´t get me wrong, I really-really want that Epic-s, but the customer pays me to frame right in the first place :laugh:

I don´t think that I can tell them

" Ya now what? Pay 4000 extra bucks so we can reframe in post - just in case I screw it up or you change your mind later,"

With big agencies, yes, maybe - with my sort of clients - no way.
 
maranfilms said:
Instead of the fixed lens, they should fix the sensor. 2/3rds, what a joke. It goes to show how long it's been since announced, back then the 2/3rds was actually considered big. Now the thought of that seems funny. Dont get me wrong, it will still be a cool camera for shooting adult films, or weddings. But for narrative work, why bother, the Canons, and pani seems the better choice for me. Im just glad Sony and Pani released a big sensor camera first. Hopefully it will humble them a bit. God knows they need it.
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Not a joke at all. Lots of projects still shot on 16mm. And that fixed lens will cover most of what people use for narrative movie making. If it comes out before I retire (in 10 or 20 yerars, sarcasm intended), I will get one and have a lot of fun making shorts and features with it. I can see having both the FS100 and the Scarlet, and like Frank, renting the Epic. I also have my 60D, so I'm covered at several places in the food chain.
 
Hard to say! Just read trough the thread and there's a lot of speculation and some wishful thinking in here. I had some talks with people from RED at NAB and they recognize their shortcomings with schedules and self promoting. I did not talked to Jim nor Jared but most in there are quite realistic about their deliverables.
The Scarlet project went to several changes and the new Epic-S is the result of it. Epic is not a consumer camera, not even a high end consumer product, the way they see it is a lighter version for the Pro User and the price is according.
I was (like many) disappointed with so many empty promisses and change in directions. When products are available (with regular prices, no machined cameras) we'll know what to expect and I was quite surprise by the quality and concept of new accessories and the flexibility of the workflow. RED is maturing, somehow, and the results can be very interesting for all of us.
 
While Scarlet and FS100 each have their strong selling points, for me, it all boils down to image quality. We've seen what the FS100 can do, and it's impressive, especially in low light. Can Scarlet match that? We won't know for sure until we see full-res Scarlet footage shot under similar conditions, but I kinda doubt it, given the size of Scarlet's 2/3 inch sensor.

Like most of you, I had high hopes for Scarlet, but now I see it slipping away, away, away...
 
kprince said:
How many of y'all are future Scarlet Fixed buyers?
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Two years ago yes. Today, no. I like being able to use all my lenses and don't want to deal with 2/3. Yes, I am spoiled with being able to throw on my prime lenses. And I have no interest until they can deliver cameras on time. It's awesome that they keep improving things via firmware, but I really just want a camera that works everytime, does what it's supposed to, and doesn't give me any unknown surprises.

Things are changing so quickly that I don't really want to spend 10K on a camera system, not when the pace of change is so rapid. Renting makes more sense at the moment.
 
Billy Barber said:
A quick glance through Reduser and you'd quickly stumble upon the concept of 'futureproofing' your projects by using Red cameras. There's part of me that hates to admit it but they're right. Red is thinking long term though and I think the winning argument is it's both long and short term.

In the short term one could come off SDI into a Prores capture device the way everyone is talking about with the F3/FS 100 and put the RAW files up on the shelf. So why wouldn't the post process be just as easy? Then the cool part: we would all like to think that everything on the shot list or storyboard is shot just so, but the reality is the ability to reframe later is huge. Steadicam shots with the extra elbow room of 4/5K is also a huge bonus. So you could go back to the RAW files just for those situations (and a few others come to think of it).Add to that the possibility that down the road if one were to produce something that stood the test of time the project could be re-edited to fit the resolution flavor of the day. At the price point of an F3 at 12K an Epic S also has the advantage of a DSLR size and form, though a bit heavier. Then there's HDRx....

Damn, I'm talking myself into waiting again. I hate it when that happens.
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Hahaha!, best rationalization ever! I'm exactly the same.. I do like what Sony has done here though.. I just have way too many adapters.. arghhhh **brain explodes**
 
Probably wise to clear up something regarding the Epic-S pricing. There have only ever been hints from Jim, nothing was ever confirmed and, of course, everything is subject to change.

When people say that it is $12k, take that with an Epic pinch of salt.

Of course, whatever price is finally announced, it is not for a working camera anyway... so saying they are similar in price to the F3 is off the mark.
 
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