On Odyssey Firmware Update

M

Mitch Gross

Veteran
Convergent Design strives to be as open as possible with our clients about our development process. The next Odyssey Firmware update is chiefly about monitoring functions, in particular a complete revamping of the LUT functionality. All three Odyssey models (7/7Q/7Q+) are getting a large number of preset LUTs added, and the Odyssey7Q and Odyssey7Q+ are gaining the ability to load custom 3D-LUTs. All of these LUTs will be selectively routable to the OLED, the Image Analysis Tools and the video outputs with greater control than any other device on the market.


Convergent Design is committed to delivering the best possible product to our clients. The reworking of the LUT system within the Odyssey monitor/recorders also allows the opportunity to improve the internal “baked in” LUTs used for the RAW conversion on the Sony FS7 and FS700 cameras. When taking the RAW signal, deBayering it and recording directly to Apple ProRes (in 4K, UHD, 2K or HD), there is the choice to record in S-Log2 or Rec709. While S-Log2 offers more room for post correction, Rec709 is the fastest way to provide a deliverable file to an end client. A significant aspect of the upcoming firmware update is to address the current internal LUT process to provide an improved Rec709 image in this mode.


The process of creating and improving these LUTs, in particular the internal LUTs for the FS7 & FS700 RAW->ProRes, has made it necessary for Convergent Design to delay the release of the next firmware update a few weeks. During this time the LUTs will be finalized so that all will benefit.


We at Convergent Design try to be as open and responsive to our client needs as possible. We never wish to delay an update, but we always wish to deliver on what our clients indicate is important to their work. Please continue to let us know how we can improve and expand our products to best serve the community.
 
Mitch Gross said:
we always wish to deliver on what our clients indicate is important to their work. Please continue to let us know how we can improve and expand our products to best serve the community.
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Skin color banding fix is top worry for my work at the moment. Hoping this is priority number one as Mitch once stated here on the forums.
 
Looking forward to this Mitch. Hopefully it will address the majority of outstanding problems I am having with it. Are you intending to include an Slog3 option down the line?
 
I suppose the question is academic, however, I'm highly suspect that what the O7Q is recording from the FS700 in 4K ProRes is really Slog2. The exposure protocols just don't line up with expected results for Slog2. I would sure like some rational explanation of the divergence of FS700 exposure methodology from Slog2 expectations. Irrational and short on technical explanation answers don't leave me with confidence that CD is being forthright. Perhaps you're limited by Sony disclosure agreements, but, the resulting perception by this user is not very positive.
 
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Mitch Gross said:
Convergent Design strives to be as open as possible with our clients about our development process. The next Odyssey Firmware update is chiefly about monitoring functions, in particular a complete revamping of the LUT functionality. All three Odyssey models (7/7Q/7Q+) are getting a large number of preset LUTs added, and the Odyssey7Q and Odyssey7Q+ are gaining the ability to load custom 3D-LUTs. All of these LUTs will be selectively routable to the OLED, the Image Analysis Tools and the video outputs with greater control than any other device on the market.


Convergent Design is committed to delivering the best possible product to our clients. The reworking of the LUT system within the Odyssey monitor/recorders also allows the opportunity to improve the internal “baked in” LUTs used for the RAW conversion on the Sony FS7 and FS700 cameras. When taking the RAW signal, deBayering it and recording directly to Apple ProRes (in 4K, UHD, 2K or HD), there is the choice to record in S-Log2 or Rec709. While S-Log2 offers more room for post correction, Rec709 is the fastest way to provide a deliverable file to an end client. A significant aspect of the upcoming firmware update is to address the current internal LUT process to provide an improved Rec709 image in this mode.


The process of creating and improving these LUTs, in particular the internal LUTs for the FS7 & FS700 RAW->ProRes, has made it necessary for Convergent Design to delay the release of the next firmware update a few weeks. During this time the LUTs will be finalized so that all will benefit.


We at Convergent Design try to be as open and responsive to our client needs as possible. We never wish to delay an update, but we always wish to deliver on what our clients indicate is important to their work. Please continue to let us know how we can improve and expand our products to best serve the community.
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Does this push back next month's update as well?
 
Set backs should be expected. I just pulled the trigger on a 7Q+ after Mitch mentioned that anamorphic deqsueeze was only days from release. We're preparing for a June production on a feature. And while this would be minor to a larger production that has the means to quickly find an alternate solution, a micro-budget endeavor like mine is limited by financial restrictions. So easy solutions, like buying/renting a 2nd monitor during pre-pro that *will* perform the anamorphic desqueeze for camera tests and prep, isn't in the cards.

I wish they could release an update this month, sans whatever functionality is holding them up. But again, this sort of thing should be anticipated. And it's reminder of the importance of always having a backup in place, whether that be cast, crew, gear, locations, anything.
 
Essami said:
Skin color banding fix is top worry for my work at the moment. Hoping this is priority number one as Mitch once stated here on the forums.
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We are absolutely looking into the banding issue in 2K RAW. Please note that it is only in 2K RAW, not 4K RAW. Sony jumps through some hoops to create the 2K, and we are determining how much we can address v. how much we can ask Sony to address. But it is not being ignored.

Please understand that on both the FS700 and the FS7, the 4K RAW signal will always be superior to the 2K RAW signal in numerous ways. Even at lower frame rates there are still compromises in the 2K RAW output from these 4K cameras.
 
nyvz said:
Does this push back next month's update as well?
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We hope not, but we need to see just what it takes to get this completed and then we'll re-evaluate. We are on top of this every step of the way but we also need to allow our engineers to do their work so can't be breathing down their backs. As of right now we are making steady progress. We work in teams on various tasks and one project (say 3d-LUTs and color science) does not particularly effect another (say, Samsung SSD coding & testing).
 
Zak Forsman said:
Set backs should be expected. I just pulled the trigger on a 7Q+ after Mitch mentioned that anamorphic deqsueeze was only days from release. We're preparing for a June production on a feature. And while this would be minor to a larger production that has the means to quickly find an alternate solution, a micro-budget endeavor like mine is limited by financial restrictions. So easy solutions, like buying/renting a 2nd monitor during pre-pro that *will* perform the anamorphic desqueeze for camera tests and prep, isn't in the cards.

I wish they could release an update this month, sans whatever functionality is holding them up. But again, this sort of thing should be anticipated. And it's reminder of the importance of always having a backup in place, whether that be cast, crew, gear, locations, anything.
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Thanks for that, Zak. And we will certainly have this release out in plenty of time for your testing, complete with anamorphic desqueeze.
 
cuervo said:
I suppose the question is academic, however, I'm highly suspect that what the O7Q is recording from the FS700 in 4K ProRes is really Slog2. The exposure protocols just don't line up with expected results for Slog2. I would sure like some rational explanation of the divergence of FS700 exposure methodology from Slog2 expectations. Irrational and short on technical explanation answers don't leave me with confidence that CD is being forthright. Perhaps you're limited by Sony disclosure agreements, but, the resulting perception by this user is not very positive.
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I'm not sure where I've been irrational in my responses. I will say that while I do have some technical knowledge, I am also not the person who does the programming for such work. However I do communicate with him and others on a daily basis and do try to best communicate to you and others.

I have specifically asked that the S-Log2 output be looked at so that we can be sure that we are compliant to Sony standards. I don't have an answer for you at this time, but I have had many encouraging interactions with the team working on this. And there is in fact a TEAM of very smart, very knowledgable people working on these issues.

I for one have been dissatisfied with the look of our FS700 RAW->ProRes outputs. I always knew we could do better. Now with the new 3D-LUT engine in place we have a method for addressing this much more directly than in the past. So I and others have been pushing for these improvements. Please know that my role here is not lip-service. I was a DP for more than 20 years. I know what I want see and we really do listen to try to get what you want as well. This delay is specifically because I and others insisted that we had to make this right before we released the update.

We have been a very good tool, now we're going to be even better.
 
Mitch Gross said:
We are absolutely looking into the banding issue in 2K RAW. Please note that it is only in 2K RAW, not 4K RAW. Sony jumps through some hoops to create the 2K, and we are determining how much we can address v. how much we can ask Sony to address. But it is not being ignored.

Please understand that on both the FS700 and the FS7, the 4K RAW signal will always be superior to the 2K RAW signal in numerous ways. Even at lower frame rates there are still compromises in the 2K RAW output from these 4K cameras.
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Just to be clear Im talking about the issue with 4K to Prores discussed here:
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?333923-SONY-FS700-ODYSSEY-7Q-SLog2-color-issues

I dont know why Mitch says its 2K raw problem only.... Maybe an update on the linked thread Mitch if possible?
 
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Mitch Gross said:
I'm not sure where I've been irrational in my responses. I will say that while I do have some technical knowledge, I am also not the person who does the programming for such work. However I do communicate with him and others on a daily basis and do try to best communicate to you and others.

I have specifically asked that the S-Log2 output be looked at so that we can be sure that we are compliant to Sony standards. I don't have an answer for you at this time, but I have had many encouraging interactions with the team working on this. And there is in fact a TEAM of very smart, very knowledgable people working on these issues.

I for one have been dissatisfied with the look of our FS700 RAW->ProRes outputs. I always knew we could do better. Now with the new 3D-LUT engine in place we have a method for addressing this much more directly than in the past. So I and others have been pushing for these improvements. Please know that my role here is not lip-service. I was a DP for more than 20 years. I know what I want see and we really do listen to try to get what you want as well. This delay is specifically because I and others insisted that we had to make this right before we released the update.

We have been a very good tool, now we're going to be even better.
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Sorry if I'm being a PITRA to you, Mitch. In reference to post no. 20 in this thread,
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthrea...he-O7Q&p=1986539837&highlight=#post1986539837
the answer your very smart team gave you to my question was a bunch of evasive BS. Or perhaps, they didn't want to explain things to you sufficiently for you to pass on. Or, even more worrisome, they really don't understand what Slog is about. At any rate, i really do hope there are some good explanations for why RAW to SLOG2/ProRes from the FS700-> O7Q is not performing well. I know you guys are working on the banding issue, but, I can't help but wonder if the banding issue and the exposure issues aren't related.

You can't create silk from a sow's ear, if the issues exist in the data stream coming from the FS700. I would understand if you just said, it's Sony and there's nothing we can do. But, C-D seems to be making an attempt to make it better, for this I am grateful. Does that suggest culpability or total responsibility? It's irrelevant, other than the probability that it can be fixed.

It's not so important to me to assign any kind of blame. Who cares about that? But, i think it is important that all interested parties recognize that RAW 2 Slog2 isn't working right; and needs some resolution. If, in the final result, exposure is still ETTR, it would be important to understand why 90% white isn't 59 IRE, as it should be for slog2.
 
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cuervo said:
Sorry if I'm being a PITRA to you, Mitch. In reference to post no. 20 in this thread,
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthrea...he-O7Q&p=1986539837&highlight=#post1986539837
the answer your very smart team gave you to my question was a bunch of evasive BS. Or perhaps, they didn't want to explain things to you sufficiently for you to pass on. Or, even more worrisome, they really don't understand what Slog is about. At any rate, i really do hope there are some good explanations for why RAW to SLOG2/ProRes from the FS700-> O7Q is not performing well. I know you guys are working on the banding issue, but, I can't help but wonder if the banding issue and the exposure issues aren't related.

You can't create silk from a sow's ear, if the issues exist in the data stream coming from the FS700. I would understand if you just said, it's Sony and there's nothing we can do. But, C-D seems to be making an attempt to make it better, for this I am grateful. Does that suggest culpability or total responsibility? It's irrelevant, other than the probability that it can be fixed.

It's not so important to me to assign any kind of blame. Who cares about that? But, i think it is important that all interested parties recognize that RAW 2 Slog2 isn't working right; and needs some resolution. If, in the final result, exposure is still ETTR, it would be important to understand why 90% white isn't 59 IRE, as it should be for slog2.
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Let me put it this way:

There are some things we simply are not going to share. Some because it reveals our internal workings, which are corporate secrets. We do have competitors you know. Some because there is technical information shared with us by Sony that we are contractually obligated NOT to reveal, so no matter what we may or may not want to explain, we simply cannot.

So we are trying to answer where we can, and more importantly we are trying to address the actual issues as best we can. We're making very good progress, and an important part of this is the new way in which images are processed. I'll open the door just a crack here. A linear RAW file isn't simply debarred and then a single 3D-LUT applied. There is much, much more to it than that. More than applying a standard gamma and matrix that can then have a LUT applied. There are layers to these things, and it can get quite complicated. It's important to preserve information in one area so that it can be used later on. Yes I am being purposefully vague here, but that's because I have good reason to be.

So what I can say is that in rebuilding our image processing system in order to properly accommodate the new 3D-LUT system, we also revamped other aspects that allow us to do our "internal" image manipulation better. No, I won't tell you how. That's a trade secret. But we are using it to specifically address these issues.

I'm sorry I cannot be more forthcoming and I sorry if it does not instill confidence for you. But this is business and there are limits. Before you reach a judgement please see what we can do and if it addresses your concerns. I have and will continue to deliver the issues brought up here and elsewhere to the attention of our engineers, so please know that your voices are heard.
 
Mitch Gross said:
Let me put it this way:

There are some things we simply are not going to share. Some because it reveals our internal workings, which are corporate secrets. We do have competitors you know. Some because there is technical information shared with us by Sony that we are contractually obligated NOT to reveal, so no matter what we may or may not want to explain, we simply cannot.

So we are trying to answer where we can, and more importantly we are trying to address the actual issues as best we can. We're making very good progress, and an important part of this is the new way in which images are processed. I'll open the door just a crack here. A linear RAW file isn't simply debarred and then a single 3D-LUT applied. There is much, much more to it than that. More than applying a standard gamma and matrix that can then have a LUT applied. There are layers to these things, and it can get quite complicated. It's important to preserve information in one area so that it can be used later on. Yes I am being purposefully vague here, but that's because I have good reason to be.

So what I can say is that in rebuilding our image processing system in order to properly accommodate the new 3D-LUT system, we also revamped other aspects that allow us to do our "internal" image manipulation better. No, I won't tell you how. That's a trade secret. But we are using it to specifically address these issues.

I'm sorry I cannot be more forthcoming and I sorry if it does not instill confidence for you. But this is business and there are limits. Before you reach a judgement please see what we can do and if it addresses your concerns. I have and will continue to deliver the issues brought up here and elsewhere to the attention of our engineers, so please know that your voices are heard.
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Thanx, again, for addressing this and taking the time to reply, Mitch. I understand your point. I do much better with hearing you say you can't reveal proprietary info, than being fed an explanation that doesn't hold water.

You said, " Before you reach a judgement please see what we can do and if it addresses your concerns". Consider it done, In the end, if it works, that's all I care about. Despite inflationary pressures, a product that costs in excess of $2K, should perform adequately.
 
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When recording 4K RAW to ProRes, I'm wondering that if the Odyssey is just using the FS-700 S-Log 2 gamma setting to enable it's own S-Log 2 processing, why not just make that switch available in the Odyssey? That would enable more flexible settings for simultaneous recording to the camera.
 
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