Offline editing?

egproductions

egproductions

Veteran
I was wondering how offline editing would work with this camera and its "telecine workflow" If I wanted to do a rough edit in sd (I know not the best idea for various reasons) and then use an EDL or something of the like to take a higher quality version and cut it up for me.
 
Presumably the workflow is:

Workflow A- capture 4K, output whatever
Shoot.
Run compressed RAW footage through Redcine. Make offline copies of footage in your favorite codec + format.
Offline Edit.
Take EDL into Redcine.
Redcine spits out footage at online quality in specified format + codec. It also outputs an EDL referring to the online quality files.
Bring EDL + online quality files into finishing system.

Redcine may also accept ?XML, ?proprietary NLE formats (i.e. FCP projects), AAF, etc. They are probably hashing this out. The problems with EDLs and AAF and XML is that they don't always work!!

Workflow B:
Something like cineform RAW?
Shoot Redcode at lower than 4K resolution.... i.e. 1080.
Edit directly off 1080 files (on the Red media... Reddrive or Redraid). Codec is set to low-quality, fast de-bayer.
Switch codec settings to slow, high-quality de-bayer.
Finish project.
Render.

Workflow C:
Like B, except you skip the higher-quality step. Output directly with low-quality, fast de-bayer.
 
Off line edit workflow

Off line edit workflow

Most common offline edit workflow would be - (as stated above, thanks Glenn!)

1. Shoot and record 4K or 2K REDCODE RAW.
2. Run compressed REDCODE RAW footage through REDCINE.
3. Export lower resolution footage in your desired codec + format.
4. Perform offline Edit.
5. Import EDL into REDCINE.
6. Export online quality footage in specified format + codec from REDCINE.
7. Conform using online quality footage and EDL in finishing system.
 
Anybody care to make a little list of these finishing systems that can handle 2k and 4k with EDL, and maybe make some recommandations? I know you guys are thinking: "Kjetil man!! You can't afford them anyway! Why bother!" But bear with me here. It's educational!

Thanx
 
Discreet Lustre is a color correction system and would not be used for online editing - yes it can be tricked into behaving like an online suite, but that is certainly not its intended purpose. Same goes for Scratch.

Also don't forget Discreet Inferno & Flame, although they are better for short format onlines (ads, videos & show openeings). I wonder - is Quantel IQ truly resolution independent? I though it was just an HD box.

Also I don't think that you need to personally OWN all of the online gear you'll ever use. The vast majority of HD+++ shows use professional post facilities for these services. A movie can be onlined (professionally) in a week or less (depending on the vfx requirements).
 
I agree. That's what I plan to do - when it's ready.
Unfortunately most visual fx work is done at 10-16 bit uncompressed rgb. Having worked on a number on IMAX films, I can attest to some SLOW renders. 4K onlines on a quad-core Mac should be great, but be careful of the fx work.
 
Questions:

Is it a good idea to not do fades, dissolves, etc. when editing offline? Would fades / dissolves somehow negatively affect an EDL working properly?

Also, why is it a bad idea to offline in SD?

And, roughly speaking, about how much does an online finishing post facility cost? Ballpark figure (assuming a regular, no vfx drama shot in 4K redcode.) Are we talking a few thousands? Tens of thousands? Would they do color correction, too?

What do they deliver on? Hard disks? D5 tape? HDcam SR? Blu-Ray?

Just curious...
 
EDL seems a bit outdated ?
isn't AAF more robust ( EDL on stroids) then EDL ?
and isn't there something newer then AAF ?
 
jrv3034 said:
Questions:

Is it a good idea to not do fades, dissolves, etc. when editing offline? Would fades / dissolves somehow negatively affect an EDL working properly?

Also, why is it a bad idea to offline in SD?

And, roughly speaking, about how much does an online finishing post facility cost? Ballpark figure (assuming a regular, no vfx drama shot in 4K redcode.) Are we talking a few thousands? Tens of thousands? Would they do color correction, too?

What do they deliver on? Hard disks? D5 tape? HDcam SR? Blu-Ray?

Just curious...
Click to expand...

1.) Do anything you want in offline - just be prepared to do it again in online. Fades and dissolves are no problem. The tricky part is the interim stage between online and offline. In the film world many editors will do a negative assembly (neg cut the select shots with handles) prior to the select scene color correction session (telecine) so that they do not have to lace up dozens of lab rolls. This process may apply to a 4K Red workflow if you plan on color grading PRIOR to your online. I'd recommend at least 10 frame handles, unless your edit is totally locked. Also many foreign broadcasters request master delivery WITHOUT fade downs, so that they can structure their own commercial breaks, etc.

2.) Bad idea to offline in SD? I think it just depends on what your offline platform can handle. 720p should be reasonable, but I know many editors who prefer to have absolutely as much storage as possible. Hundreds of hours in some cases. 720x405 is a good res to remember = ntsc width @ 16X9 aspect ratio. Sadly there is also a political reason to offline at a lower res - and that is clients / investors / backers, etc. Once they make the leap to online / full res, they are usually so happy about the picture quality that they forget to bust your balls about other meaningless things (like the color of the girl's sweater, or whatever.) Sounds cold and calculating? Well, unless you're self-funded, it's very true.

3.) A discreet Inferno or Fire is about $7,000 (canadian) a day - rate card. You can probably cut that in half or more if you sweet talk them. And then there are the freebies, but you have to be pretty smooth to get one of those!

4.) Most post facilities are optimized to deliver on standardized formats - HD-SR, HDcam, HD-D5, etc. etc. Others have DI departments for 35mm film-outs - that's why they are called finishing houses - they'll give you what you need to go to market. However you can certainly request your 4K or 2K delivery on SDLT, DTF, drive or some other form of pure data format.

5.) Things - they are changing. In many ways big, expensive post houses are behind the curve when it comes to new technology. Yup, there is a bit of a revolution going on and I suspect that many big post houses will get the #&%$ kicked out of them by mom-and-pop mac outfits - just as I suspect that many cheaper upstarts (or solo efforts) are going to be surprised by what 4K onlines really take in terms of data management, render times and basic knowhow. I have seen many, many examples of the later. Funny - just two or three years ago I was dead set against a 4K post workflow and would FREAK any time a director or DOP was flirting with 4K - now I'm as excited as a little girl. It's all about the compression (think Redcode & Redcine). Once you go Raw or 16-bit uncompressed RGB @ 4K - and on a limited budget - well... good luck...
 
Stuart English said:
Most common offline edit workflow would be - (as stated above, thanks Glenn!)

1. Shoot and record 4K or 2K REDCODE RAW.
2. Run compressed REDCODE RAW footage through REDCINE.
3. Export lower resolution footage in your desired codec + format.
4. Perform offline Edit.
5. Import EDL into REDCINE.
6. Export online quality footage in specified format + codec from REDCINE.
7. Conform using online quality footage and EDL in finishing system.
Click to expand...

Assuming that color grading is strong enough in REDCINE for the starving independent, then how about this as an option...

6. Export online footage WITH FADES AND DISSOLVES as a single compiled stream in specified format + codec from REDCINE.

Regards,
 
Grading in REDCINE is primary CC only - it's a RAW converter, not a DI tool. However, I bet you'll try to use it as one!

What I'd be doing is probably editing with a 1k downconvert (or 2k downconvert if you've got some heavy iron) and then conform in the NLE (assuming it will take 4k) at the end, and outputting to REDCODE.

Graeme
 
and for poor people like the majority is here in this board?..

because i've been reading $7,000 a day like the people will be the hollywood mainstream over here.. :grin:

we want affordable solutions: especially online stuff!

2K and 4K when available.

we won't pay abroad what we can have at home.. home editing.. online included.. yeah, i like the concept! hey graeme, any thoughts?
 
My aim is for you to edit and finish 4k REDCODE at home. However, your NLE will have to support 4k I think, and at the moment, that's a tricky issue. FCP for instance only goes up to 4000, not 4096. What does the affordable Avid do?

Graeme
 
I like your style Graeme ! 4K at home has a really sweet ring to it. I'm sure JJ call SJ must be talking by now.
Aloha
-A
 
Graeme_Nattress said:
However, your NLE will have to support 4k I think, and at the moment, that's a tricky issue.

Graeme
Click to expand...

Yes, that's why I brought up the potential of having the ability to export out a single stream compile from REDCINE of your final format... it would be a nice option if the coding of a few limited transitions would be possible, fades/dissolves, SMPTE wipes and such... all the ones supported with standard EDL's... call it a stop-gap measure for the limitations of 4k NLE support out there.

Wait... could that then be a step away from something called "REDEDIT"? :)

All of this is VERY real for me, as last year I had to produce a sizable length of edited 4096 by 4096 material for a high-end planetarium show. My "off-line" resolution was 512 by 512 early on, with that footage being replaced by 1024 by 1024 and then the final renders at 4096 by 4096. Ultimately, my NLE choices vanished one by one, leaving only compositing software, and I finished in Digital Fusion.

Regards,
 
Hi Graeme,

this is what I found on adobe.com about premiere 2.0 :
"Support for 4,096x4,096 frames. Import, edit, and output 4K image sequences with dimensions up to 4,096x4,096 pixels"

BTW, what about After effects ? It can import AAF & OMF, I know, it´s tedious work in there, last week I imported the premiere-timeline from a little music video, just out of curiosity...and immediately closed the afx-project.

Priyesh
 
filmmakers1977 wrote:
"and for poor people like the majority is here in this board?."

to all the poor people - I hope you understand that RED cannot solve all your problems. You need money to buy a Red, you need money to buy batteries ( i am sure red will not deliver batteries with the camera - i read this question on the board....) you will need lenses, adapters, sticks and a fluid head.. and that all in a functional quality. you need to edit and you will have a lot of data... so please what do you believe. buying a red one for 17k and that´s it ?
I am still wondering....
 
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