Official Sony NEX-VG10 Thread

[Max Smith]

True enough, but I do wish the forum members would better appreciate what the VG10 offers, not what it doesn't.

Consider:

Great depth of field control, the holy grail of videography. I've always shot with 2/3" chip cams, and as far as controlling DoF, this little camera should put them all to shame. As a 20+ year veteran videographer, I see this as a tremendous tool. You want a real "film look" to your projects? Narrow that DoF.

A sensor that big, on such a little camera? Wow.
Personally, I've never been a fan of DSLRs as video cameras. I like my video cameras to be video cameras. This cam should fill that niche.

Interchangeable lenses, both zooms and primes. Oh, the possibilities!

AVCHD at 24mbs. (Actually, I have no idea what this means, but I think it's better than HDV.)

HDMI output.

Cheap media storage.

Almost everything I shoot goes directly to broadcast. Trust me, 1080/60i is an accepted format. And besides, can't the frame rates be changed with a software update? If not from Sony, perhaps an outside vendor? Just askin'.

All this, for $2,000.


Of course, we really won't know more until the camera is actually released. I say we withhold judgement until we get some real-world experience.

That seems pretty nonsensical to me. We all havew 'real world experience' shooting with large and small chip cameras, and we all have 'real world experience' with various frame rate formats including 60/30 and 24p.

Actualyl shooting with this camera isn't going to magically make 30p or 60p somehow fulfill the need or desire for 24p. And while it might seem like we're asking for a lot, really we're only asking for what is commonly availible in DSLRs already.

In fact, it is real workd experience with DSLRs that makes the NEX-VG10s obvious shortcoming so puzzling.

 

[vanvideo]

That seems pretty nonsensical to me. We all havew 'real world experience' shooting with large and small chip cameras, and we all have 'real world experience' with various frame rate formats including 60/30 and 24p.

Actualyl shooting with this camera isn't going to magically make 30p or 60p somehow fulfill the need or desire for 24p. And while it might seem like we're asking for a lot, really we're only asking for what is commonly availible in DSLRs already.

In fact, it is real workd experience with DSLRs that makes the NEX-VG10s obvious shortcoming so puzzling.

"Nonsensical?" Wow. Dude, chill. It's just a freakin' camera. Do you own stock in Sony, or something?
I have lots and lots of time with many different cameras, and I'm still going to withhold judgement on this one until it comes out. It looks promising, but who knows for sure?

But if you want 24P, well, simple solution - buy something else. This camera wasn't meant for you - or for many on this forum, apparently. Oh, well. Sony's loss.
But there is a nice Panasonic 4:3 sensor, interchangeable lens camera coming out soon. It should have 24P. Maybe. Of course, it'll probably cost 3 times as much.

 

[Rick Burnett]

"Nonsensical?" Wow. Dude, chill. It's just a freakin' camera. Do you own stock in Sony, or something?
I have lots and lots of time with many different cameras, and I'm still going to withhold judgement on this one until it comes out. It looks promising, but who knows for sure?

But if you want 24P, well, simple solution - buy something else. This camera wasn't meant for you - or for many on this forum, apparently. Oh, well. Sony's loss.
But there is a nice Panasonic 4:3 sensor, interchangeable lens camera coming out soon. It should have 24P. Maybe. Of course, it'll probably cost 3 times as much.

I think you are missing the point. It's called frustration at companies not understanding potential target audiences when they've been told these things OVER and OVER again.

24p is a lot less computationally expensive, requires less bandwidth, and is essentially cheaper to implement than 30p. The fact they are supporting both 30p and 25p, but aren't supporting 24p is just silly. It would be one thing if this was an isolated experience, but these companies don't live in a vacuum. They KNOW people want 24p and surely have their own reason for not including it. But for the people here, it is just frustrating that once again, a camera with quite a bit of potential is hobbled for no technical limitation reason. At the end of the day though, you are right, I'll use another camera, like my 7D which is cheaper than the Sony and it has 24p.

 

[vanvideo]

I think you are missing the point. It's called frustration at companies not understanding potential target audiences when they've been told these things OVER and OVER again.

24p is a lot less computationally expensive, requires less bandwidth, and is essentially cheaper to implement than 30p. The fact they are supporting both 30p and 25p, but aren't supporting 24p is just silly. It would be one thing if this was an isolated experience, but these companies don't live in a vacuum. They KNOW people want 24p and surely have their own reason for not including it. But for the people here, it is just frustrating that once again, a camera with quite a bit of potential is hobbled for no technical limitation reason. At the end of the day though, you are right, I'll use another camera, like my 7D which is cheaper than the Sony and it has 24p.

No, I get the point. You guys want 24P. Got it. And yes, Sony should have included that in this camera. We'll probably never know why they didn't include the frame rate. Maybe because it's marketed as a consumer camera, they didn't think the general public would care. And if so, they're probably right in that regard. Or maybe there's some technical reason it's not included. Or simple economics.

Yes, Sony is probably losing a potential customer base by excluding 24P. I'm sure they are. Heck, I'd love the VG10 to have it. But I'd also love it to have XLR inputs, a viewfinder off the EX3, time code in/out, etc.
But the camera does have other strong points, especially considering its price range. To me, the large sensor, interchangeable lenses and DoF control greatly outweigh the lack of 24P. Assuming the codec is robust and the image is as strong as I've seen in the promotional videos, I can find immediate use for the VG10 in my line of work.

But maybe if everybody raises enough racket (as this forum certainly has) Sony will include the 24P option as a software upgrade. Or include it in future models.

 

[Rick Burnett]

No, I get the point. You guys want 24P. Got it. And yes, Sony should have included that in this camera. We'll probably never know why they didn't include the frame rate. Maybe because it's marketed as a consumer camera, they didn't think the general public would care. And if so, they're probably right in that regard. Or maybe there's some technical reason it's not included. Or simple economics.

Yes, Sony is probably losing a potential customer base by excluding 24P. I'm sure they are. Heck, I'd love the VG10 to have it. But I'd also love it to have XLR inputs, a viewfinder off the EX3, time code in/out, etc.
But the camera does have other strong points, especially considering its price range. To me, the large sensor, interchangeable lenses and DoF control greatly outweigh the lack of 24P. Assuming the codec is robust and the image is as strong as I've seen in the promotional videos, I can find immediate use for the VG10 in my line of work.

But maybe if everybody raises enough racket (as this forum certainly has) Sony will include the 24P option as a software upgrade. Or include it in future models.

From a technical standpoint (as I am both an electrical engineer and a programmer, and I work on CMOS circuits), I don't see how this is a technical limitation. Granted, you are correct that maybe it is, but given the system does have some sort of microcontroller in it, and we know that the system can work in two speed already 30 and 25, I don't see it as much of a technical difficulty to add 24 in. I look at it in the same light as the Canon 5D2, it also came with no 24p. They added it after the fact. And 5D2 people were sure mad at Canon that the 7D, which was cheaper, had it.

With adding XLR, a viewfinder, time code in/out, these are not only professional features, but they would cost significant money as they require hardware and design change. 24p is not solely a professional feature, it comes on MANY MANY cheap cameras.

I am not a fan of the burrito form factor. Having used an HV30 and HF200 for awhile, I don't find that an improvement over the DSLR form factor. I watched the promo video and I can say that I didn't think it was any better or worse than the DSLR promo videos. So for me, large sensor, interchangeable lenses and DoF control aren't bringing me anything I cannot already get from either the GH1 or the 7D,T2I. It's significantly more expensive than these cameras. For the 7D it brings articulated LCD and HOPEFULLY no AGC (we'll see). The on kit microphone really mean nothing to a cinematographer in most cases.

But, you are right, this is probably not targeted for the people here, and I do understand that. However, being discussed here, it's going to be ripped apart for what it lacks because people shooting cinematography and video in general come here to learn more and hopefully manufacturers do as well (like Panasonic does) to find out what this audience wants as well.

I hate to say it, but Sony has no track record for large sensor CMOS video capture, so we really don't know what to expect. THAT will be the proof, when people here who are familiar with the GH1/3 and Canon DSLRs start shooting with it and comparing apples to apples.

Haha, but remember, we have to do something while we wait for our dream cameras, and complaining is the next best thing

 

[stip]

But the camera does have other strong points, especially considering its price range. To me, the large sensor, interchangeable lenses and DoF control greatly outweigh the lack of 24P.

The strong points you're talking about are already available with DSLRs, for less money, including various framerates and resolution.

 

[Max Smith]

"Nonsensical?" Wow. Dude, chill. It's just a freakin' camera. Do you own stock in Sony, or something?
I have lots and lots of time with many different cameras, and I'm still going to withhold judgement on this one until it comes out. It looks promising, but who knows for sure?

But if you want 24P, well, simple solution - buy something else. This camera wasn't meant for you - or for many on this forum, apparently. Oh, well. Sony's loss.
But there is a nice Panasonic 4:3 sensor, interchangeable lens camera coming out soon. It should have 24P. Maybe. Of course, it'll probably cost 3 times as much.

Actually I do already own something that shoots 24p, it's cheaper too. And if I owned stock in Sony I would take your position that people should be happy with the camera anywayand buy it , not mine in that hey are losing potential customers by not including an already availible feature.

By nonsensical I simply meant that, for people who prefer the look of 24p, the camera simply isn't going to give us the image we want no matter how much real world experience we garner testing it.

 

[JustinBrown]

The strong points you're talking about are already available with DSLRs, for less money, including various framerates and resolution.

How many dollars does one have to spend to get a decent shooting camera? Is it more than 2,000? Probably.

Since it appears to me that this entire thread is a whinge fest about a cameras ability to shoot in 24p, is there any way to achieve 24 frames from 30p wrapped in 60i?

I am not particularly well read when it comes to all the gear out there and what the specs are for said gear, but I imagine there is something out there(dvfilm perhaps) that can convert your footage to 24 frames while deinterlacing it.

If so, the complaints are moot.

Is there some argument perhaps from the technical side to include 24p...other than "I want it, why didn't they include it"?

 

[Max Smith]

How many dollars does one have to spend to get a decent shooting camera? Is it more than 2,000? Probably.

Since it appears to me that this entire thread is a whinge fest about a cameras ability to shoot in 24p, is there any way to achieve 24 frames from 30p wrapped in 60i?

I am not particularly well read when it comes to all the gear out there and what the specs are for said gear, but I imagine there is something out there(dvfilm perhaps) that can convert your footage to 24 frames while deinterlacing it.

If so, the complaints are moot.

Is there some argument perhaps from the technical side to include 24p...other than "I want it, why didn't they include it"?[/quote]

The argument is, there's no vialble technical reason not to include it.

But actually, to back up your point, I bet if Sony doesn't offer a firmware upgrade that does include it, someone will probably be able to figure out a hack anyway.

 

[Paul V Doherty]

The so-called "holy Grail" is large sensor AND 24/25p.
Anything less is an INSULT and a JOKE.
Sony, Sony, dear sweet Sony... so close yet so far!
Protecting your professional line? What a farce!
24/25p is a bare MINIMUM feature on many, many, many "consumer" cameras.
Sony, step up to the plate, for pity's sake!

 

[IvanF]

ND filter?

 

[Paul V Doherty]

Canon will save us!!!!!
$3k, APS-C, universal mount, 24/25/30p, XLR.
Thy will be done!

 

[trez]

Very nice camera! Most problems DSLRs suffer from seem to have been addressed. Don't really understand people saying their 7d or GH1 is better video cam. This little thing has so many great features:
- super35-sized sensor (low noise, nice shallow dof without need for f1.4, all my older lenses will have proper angle of view)
- short ffd (can use any lens via simple adapter)
- good codec (full avchd implementation)
- no moire thanks to proper optical lowpass filter)
- very little rolling shutter
- uncompressed hdmi out! I can hook the monitor for focus puller as well as my nano and record crazy quality progressive 25p footage - it extracts the progressive frames from interlace stream on the fly).
- no heat problems (I do hope)
if you're not happy with lack of 24p - move to Europe. It's high time...

 

[Rick Burnett]

NOTHING proves that this camera works great in low light, doesn't have moire, or has little rolling shutter.

Even the Alexa suffers from Moire and that camera is 35x the cost of this one and is brand new.

It's the same size sensor as the 7D, so you'll need the same F stop for shallow DoF.

It might be perfect for you, but for me, it's not really addressing anything yet that I really care about (other than audio). And I bet the performance of the rolling shutter will be on par with the 7D, GH1 given the cost, if not worse.

 

[maranfilms]

True enough, but I do wish the forum members would better appreciate what the VG10 offers, not what it doesn't.

Consider:

Great depth of field control, the holy grail of videography. I've always shot with 2/3" chip cams, and as far as controlling DoF, this little camera should put them all to shame. As a 20+ year veteran videographer, I see this as a tremendous tool. You want a real "film look" to your projects? Narrow that DoF.

A sensor that big, on such a little camera? Wow.
Personally, I've never been a fan of DSLRs as video cameras. I like my video cameras to be video cameras. This cam should fill that niche.

Interchangeable lenses, both zooms and primes. Oh, the possibilities!

AVCHD at 24mbs. (Actually, I have no idea what this means, but I think it's better than HDV.)

HDMI output.

Cheap media storage.

Almost everything I shoot goes directly to broadcast. Trust me, 1080/60i is an accepted format. And besides, can't the frame rates be changed with a software update? If not from Sony, perhaps an outside vendor? Just askin'.

All this, for $2,000.


Of course, we really won't know more until the camera is actually released. I say we withhold judgement until we get some real-world experience.

I don't care if the camera has gold buttons, and the ability to wipe my ---. It doesn't have the number one feature that most filmmakers look for when purchasing a camera. *****24P***** .
Not to be rude, but who gives a rats ass what it has. It's lacking where it counts. And thats the bottom line in this whole discussion.

Thats like saying, " well this great new car has a sunroof, ac, great radio. but only drives in reverse. But, lets not focus on the negative. you can still get to where your going, there with a few detours along the way. Oh yeah, by the way did I mention our racing division has foreward gears. it's only five x's the price.:grin:

 

[David G. Smith]

Mean while, back at the "24P is the bestest thing that every happened to low budget video filmmaking and any camera that doesn't have it is sh*t" thread.... they are still beating a dead horse to f**king death.

THIS CAMERA DOES NOT HAVE 24P... "AAAAHHHHHHGGGGHHHH!!!!!"... Ok, are we over it now?

Sony is going to sell a huge pile of these cameras, yeah EVEN WITHOUT 24P. Oh shucks, golly gee!!! It may come to a big surprise to a lot of folks on this forum, but NOT EVERYONE CARES ABOUT 24P IN A CAMERA. Get over it. There are 24P cameras available for folks that want it.

 

[dadoboy]

I may buy one until something better comes along with a viewfinder and similar videocamera form factor.

It's just my own preference, but I like the large chip, and I believe full frame still glass will perform better on the large chip vs m4/3 sized chips, as the potential resolution of my legacy MD / AI and FD lenses was meant to be derived from a larger surface area, i.e. 36mm x 24mm > 23.? x 18.? > 18.? x 15.? Plus the viewfinder and form factor. But who knows whether resolution of a lens matters at all until we see how it all holds up in video mode.

I don't mind the lack of 24P. It's one of those things that audiences are used to when they watch movies, but which I view as a technically inferior to 30P or 60P. It would be a nice option to have though in whatever replaces this video camera for me though.

 

[Gweilo66]

The Bali clip looks good to me. Having some attention placed on the audio sounds good to me. It being a fraction the cost of the upcoming panny is good for many.
Would like to know for sure how the audio is handled via the inputs and whether the videocentric design has minimized jello relative to DSLRs.

 

[trez]

NOTHING proves that this camera works great in low light, doesn't have moire, or has little rolling shutter.

NEX-5, available for some time, proves it has little rolling shutter and great low-light. They use the same sensor, so we can expect same sensitivity and sensor read time.
The footage proves the aliasing has been greatly reduced, thanks to either optical lp filter or proper downscaling (the latter would be very preferred - a way better solution in terms of sensitivity/noise and mtf compared to line skipping with optical filtering). Sure there might be some moire left - the filter rolloff (whether optical or digital lpf) is never infinite, but I'm pretty sure we won't see the horrible luma/chroma aliasing of 7d, which, by the way, not only affects brickwalls, like many users claim, but every sharp, high contrast transition edge, making the image very videoish (my private opinion)

It's the same size sensor as the 7D, so you'll need the same F stop for shallow DoF.

yes, I was thinking about GH1 here. Compared to 7d - the ffd is much smaller making some great cheap glass useful again, such as Canon FD fast primes - L quality at one tenth its current price...

It might be perfect for you, but for me, it's not really addressing anything yet that I really care about (other than audio).

actually, I think it's the audio that still hasn't been addressed, as opposed to many other things - without XLR inputs and multiple channels I'd rather continue using an external recorder

 

[Rick Burnett]

I've not seen anything that proves the NEX-5 has less rolling shutter or better low light performance than any of the Canon DSLRs. I very much doubt a $2k camera is doing a full down sample of the entire sensor. For that price point, it will more than likely pixel binning, just like Canon and just like Panasonic.

The footage didn't prove anything to me. I've seen enough footage from the D90, 7D, GH1, 5D that were amazing but that they don't push all the cameras in all ways are far enough to really explain what the expect. I wouldn't expect manufacturers or those they work with to exploit the problems. Until this camera is in the wild, we wont know.

Pertaining to low pass filter, I've not seen an electronic implementation, can you explain how this is suppsed to work? An optical low pass filter, like the one used in almost all cameras, diffuses (or duplicates like a birefringent filter) the image across the pixel sites to spread out the high contrast spacial information into surrounding sites so it doesn't get lost in non-active areas. If you tried to do this after you become electrical, the information is already gone. If you mean by pixel binning, this is a very poor way to down-convert, period.

I would think the moire/aliasing of the sony will be more in line with the GH1. Using a stronger OLPF for the final target of 1080p will probably improve the picture from a moire/aliasing perspective, I agree, but if they use the same pixel binning, my opinion is it will look a little softer than the GH1 and 7D. Is this bad? Depends on how they pixel bin. Another point we will have to wait and see.

Like I said, I am not convinced one way or another about the sensor. It could be great, it could be horrible. I VERY MUCH DOUBT the rolling shutter is going to be gone or not still a problem, reduced maybe, but even then EPIC has rolling shutter still (although greatly improved).

The only reason I think people are complaining about 24p is because it's one of the only things we don't have to wait and see that they didn't implement. Anything else is just a guess. Obviously when it comes out people will be really interested in seeing how it works. I will. But I am not going to hold my breath about it. Any camera really right now. I don't want to get my hopes up!

Won't argue about the glass, I agree