Odyssey7Q February 2014 Firmware Update

morgan_moore said:
Mitch - I'm sure I don't know what raw 'means' in the the same way as I do not have the chemistry skills to make diesel for my van. I have a good concept of what I expect these technologies to do, however.

I think my expectation of 'raw' would be inline with any still or red shooter.

I'm not knocking your product btw you can only use what you are fed.

As for my camera - yep I own an f3 this quarter - but have shot with Red Fs 700 c300 et al and consider it my business to have a working knowledge of them all.

i have heard there are going to be loads of new cameras at nab from, er, you, so keep personal ownership off the bleeding edge.
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I agree. I admit that I perhaps don't know what RAW truly "means", but it's pretty confusing to have the 7Q's RAW function differently from what every other camera and shooter's notion of what RAW is. I've shot RAW photos for years and RED + 5DmkIII (Magic Lantern) RAW files function the same way the photo RAWs do. I shot in 2K RAW mode for a couple different people and had to stumble through conversations
"We need to set the color balance"
"What? I thought we were shooting RAW"
"well, we are, but from what I know we need to set the white balance on the camera to the correct color temp"
"On the RED we just set the color temp in post."
"Yeah, but the guy from Convergent Design said on DVXuser..."

Obviously I know that setting the color balance is a crucial part of setting up the image, right up there with shutter speed, aperture, etc., and one that many of us have to do because we haven't been shooting RAW. But when telling someone that the FS700 now has a RAW workflow (and possibly renting out gear) only to have this come back and bite them (or us) is a bit of a bummer.
 
jshbckr said:
it's pretty confusing to have the 7Q's RAW function differently from what every other camera and shooter's notion of what RAW is.
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This has nothing to do with the Odyssey7Q. It is a function of the different cameras. The Odyssey7Q can also capture RAW from the ARRI ALEXA, and ARRIRAW in that camera does not lock the white point (although it does travel in metadata just as it does in REDCODE so that the monitor has some clue as to how to show it). The Odyssey7Q also records RAW from the Canon C500, which is a bit inbetween the baking in level of the ALEXA and the FS700. We will also support a host of other cameras with RAW options in the coming months, and depending on the individual manufacturer there will be differing variations on the nature of the RAW signals.

Don't shoot the messenger. I'm just letting you know what the cameras do. We just faithfully record the signals. The differences are not the fault of Convergent Design or the Odyssey7Q.
 
Mitch Gross said:
This has nothing to do with the Odyssey7Q. It is a function of the different cameras. The Odyssey7Q can also capture RAW from the ARRI ALEXA, and ARRIRAW in that camera does not lock the white point (although it does travel in metadata just as it does in REDCODE so that the monitor has some clue as to how to show it). The Odyssey7Q also records RAW from the Canon C500, which is a bit inbetween the baking in level of the ALEXA and the FS700. We will also support a host of other cameras with RAW options in the coming months, and depending on the individual manufacturer there will be differing variations on the nature of the RAW signals.

Don't shoot the messenger. I'm just letting you know what the cameras do. We just faithfully record the signals. The differences are not the fault of Convergent Design or the Odyssey7Q.
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Thanks for clarifying. I guess the reason why the 7Q is dragged into it is because (aside from Sony's hardware) this is the device that actually gives us the ability to interact with the RAW signal from the FS700. Therefore, it tends to be the "cause" of any problems.

I'll probably just stick with "Unfortunately, the FS700 bakes color info into the RAW signal it sends out the SDI. So set it accordingly." as my reason. And I know you had explained in a previous post that RAW only means the image hasn't been debayered, whereas many of us take "RAW" as meaning several components haven't been baked into the image (misconception).

Thanks, Mitch.
 
I shot RAW properly over the weekend, fairly gruelling shoot and moving fast. Here are my observations:

1. The elevated blacks in the current display/recording of RAW reduce contrast when nailing focus, i don't know whether they affect peaking or not but visually it makes a little more difficult to 'see' focus. I ended up messing around with the peaking settings to find a workable solution. Same with the exposure tools. I believe this is sorted in the next firmware

2. I did have some freezes and crashes. I managed to get the O7Q to hang between a lens change where i turned the 700 off before the monitor which required a pull the power on the monitor and reconnect (because nothing worked on the screen, i held the shut down button for a while in case that would also reset but not). Also when in some menu options on the 700 the raw signal seems to output vertical noise patterns and that seemed to confuse the O7Q. Not a massive issue because resetting is easy. I don't have exact steps to reproduce as i didn't have time

3. The one LUT that's in there is of limited use, i think this is being addressed as well but i don't know when. Whilst i may understand the log look a lot of others don't. We were dealing with some quite saturated light and so understanding how that is being recorded with a log view is very, very difficult. That single LUT helped a little but it wasn't ideal. We were also matching light from previous shoots and that made it doubly difficult to see what the camera is seeing. The fact that the WFM changes with a LUT applied reduces the use a little as well. Ideally the WFM and exposure tools show the RAW levels and the LUT is just for a look on the monitor.

4. I've not totally sorted the post out. I'd done some tests that indicated i could use clip house as a quick way to transcode the RAW files into something more realistic but due to the bright colours and the default tint issues so far that's proved a complete no go. The looks are totally out of whack with what was on set in terms of colour. I will try the resolve route. I'm fairly confident that the data is in there and nothing clipped but the balance is very difficult to monitor and test for at the moment. This issue of accurate colour monitoring off it is quite an achilleas heal right now.

5. The issue of what colourspace is coming out of the camera is confusing still for me. The camera is set to Slog yet the cDNGs are linear RAW. The monitoring is log too. I see in other threads that people have been taking that into resolve -> BMD film -> LUT but to me that BMD film is perhaps logging the linear and therefore is redundant (i'm assuming the LUT at the end is linear log - so the route is Linear RAW -> Log -> Linear to Log with the middle step not needed?). The Adobe route at the moment is pointless AFAIK because you just get to select a 'look' from the RAW not all the data. So i'm looking for the best way of turning that RAW into a Log based file for post.

6. I'm still not sure what the deal is with WB and recording. Changing WB on the camera does change the look on the monitor (in a counter intuitive way) but is this balance baked in or not to the recording? I think it is because it is changing the signal being output. No biggie, just a case of knowing.

Broadly speaking the O7Q performed very well, it's not so heavy so hand holding was possible. The screen is a joy to work off. I think there's just some UI and workflow issues along with some teething problems - some of which might well be a lack of knowledge on my part!

The post debayer methods do make a massive difference. On clip house there are 3 methods of debayer and each produce quite different edge results. Some with increased magenta/green artefacting and some smoother. I've not been able to side by side and compare with Resolve or Adobe yet, but that is a comparison that's very worthwhile to try.

cheers
Paul
 
Mitch Gross said:
Is this in the recording or only in the monitoring?
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Mitch

It's only evident in the monitoring. The magenta bleed is only present if you are shooting into bright light and the bleed in focus assist, depending on the colour set, are both always on right edge of frame (see pics in earlier post). Am able to live with it I guess if design/ construction quirk.

On another note - am finding Resolve work flow clunky. This will not be a problem with the advent of Pro Res but I assume we'll still have to still go that route with the HFRs.

Thanks for your constant presence. Seem's like a thankless task at times and you do well to keep (just) your patience with what can be a tough crowd at times!

Cheers

Damian
 
paulcurtis said:
2. I did have some freezes and crashes. I managed to get the O7Q to hang between a lens change where i turned the 700 off before the monitor which required a pull the power on the monitor and reconnect (because nothing worked on the screen, i held the shut down button for a while in case that would also reset but not). Also when in some menu options on the 700 the raw signal seems to output vertical noise patterns and that seemed to confuse the O7Q. Not a massive issue because resetting is easy. I don't have exact steps to reproduce as i didn't have time
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Hey Paul,

Were you using Camera trigger? I noticed using that in conjunction with S&Q will eventually cause a crash. Since figuring that out and avoiding , I've used the 7Q as a recorder on two shoots and it has worked great.

I get the vertical noise patterns here and there when hitting various buttons, but it doesn't really do anything and it just takes the 7Q a moment to catch up.
 
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gene_can_sing said:
Hey Paul,

Were you using Camera trigger? I noticed using that in conjunction with S&Q will eventually cause a crash. Since figuring that out and avoiding , I've used the 7Q as a recorder on two shoots and it has worked great.

I get the vertical noise patterns here and there when hitting various buttons, but it doesn't really do anything and it just takes the 7Q a moment to catch up.
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Gene, yes i was although broadly speak that seemed to be okay. The crash was shutting down the fs700 before the O7Q, perhaps that triggers something on the camera trigger though. Good call. Very possibly! The vertical lines were actually recorded for me at one point.

thanks
Paul
 
Hey Paul,

Yeah, I just use the record button on the 7Q panel and no crashes at all. Not once.

Also, for ClipHouse, I've never been able to get the proper color or gamma out of it. I need Resolve for the image to look right. I'm wondering if the upcoming firmware upgrade, since it fixes 7Q DNGs to work with Adobe, if it will work well with ClipHouse also? The ClipHouse customer service told me that a DNG is just a DNG and that it's up to Convergent Design to match their settings to the default DNG specs. I'm kind of assuming Convergent is doing that since Mitch mentioned that CD is updating their DNG specs to match Adobe's, and not the other way around.
 
sunnyjimfilms said:
Is that a known fault? I love the fact the camera triggers the unit and have been testing all weekend without incident.
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For me at least, the camera trigger only has caused a crash when using it with the S&Q button. I will say that I was doing it more for testing purposes. I noticed that it happened once, and so I then tested it by continually switching frame rates and it would crash from time to time. With that said, I would never switch frame rates that much in real life. It was for testing purposes only.
 
dmitrizigany said:
Apparently Convergent Design have now recieved permission from Sony to record 4K raw!
http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/digital...21703-fs700-odyssey7q-major-announcement.html

I'm sure they'll make they're own announcement on this board soon too :)
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HOLY S#!T!!!!!! That is so awesome. The director I work with is going to be so happy as we do a lot of VFX type stuff together. Woot! For me, it will only be for VFX type stuff since the drive space is so crazy, but still such an AWESOME option.
 
So glad to see Sony thinking ahead, and letting CD cash in on the potential in both companies technology. VERY happy i did skip the 4K option from Sony, and instead pre-ordered O7Q.
 
That's terrific!! Hats of for Sony too for allowing this and keeping the FS700 in the race! 7Q will be a no-brainer now.
 
Odyssey7Q To Record FS700 4K RAW

(Colorado Springs, CO) Convergent Design’s Odyssey7Q is the most capable portable monitor/recorder on the market. It can capture and display the signals from more camera systems than any other product. That capability will soon be increased even more as we announce that recording of the 4K RAW signal from the Sony PMW-FS700 will be available in the Odyssey7Q.

4K RAW recording will be a part of the FS700 Record Option on the Odyssey7Q. It will be made available as part of the upcoming February Firmware Update for the Odyssey7Q. Any current owner of the FS700 Record Option will receive the 4K RAW capability as part of the firmware update and at no additional cost.

To use the FS700 Record Option on the Odyssey7Q, an FS700R camera or an FS700 with RAW upgrade from Sony is required. In 4K RAW mode, the FS700 can output 4096x2160 up to 60p. This signal can now be captured on the Odyssey7Q. With the FS700 Record Option the Odyssey7Q can also record 2K RAW (2048x1080) at frame rates up to 240p.

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I have updated the first post in this thread.
 
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