Odyssey7Q February 2014 Firmware Update

[Mitch Gross]

Any chance the 7Q will allow recording in an slog3 gamma curve for RAW-originated footage from the FS700?

No, because the camera does not output it as such.

This is something that most people are unaware of in regard to the FS700 in particular and RAW in general. Let me briefly explain.

RAW technically means just one thing: Non-deBayered. It does not necessarily mean that white balance, gamma, gain, etc. are not baked in. In fact on several cameras this is distinctly not the case. Different manufacturers deliver distinctly different RAW signals. In the case of the FS700, pretty much the only thing it means is (a) it is non-deBayered and (b) it is 12-bit linear so the signal has more range in it than is available in the camera's 8-bit video processed signal. But it still bakes in a bunch of stuff, such as white balance, gamma and gain. This is why it is so important to set the camera to Slog2 when feeding the RAW signal to the FS700 (plus get your white balance correct). This allows the maximum flexibility in your RAW files.

Please note that the RAW from a RED or ALEXA is very different from this, and the Magic Lantern RAW hack of Canon DSLRs is similar to RED & ALEXA. Canon is a little closer to what Sony does.

There are good reasons for doing this, and solid arguments for both approaches. One leaves the signal "untouched" and it is certainly the easiest for people to understand conceptually. Of course there is really no such thing as untouched pure RAW, but those manufacturers just put the signal to a certain standard they feel appropriate and leave it there. But the approach of Canon & Sony is more to the effect of trying to let the electronic help you out some. No matter what you do there is always some bottleneck in feeding the signals (gotta pick a bit depth cutoff no matter what), so they figure to get you the most of the signal you actually want and not worry as much about the parts you don't care about. White balance is a great example, 'cause if you can't be bothered to tell the camera to record more of the blues v. the reds due to the color of the light then that's pretty damn lazy of you. And if the gains can be used to pre-treat the signal at the camera head then the result will be cleaner than if you have to try to pull it up later.

Anyway, this is a very long answer that skirts your original question. The FS700 offers the output of Slog2 over RAW, so that is what the Odyssey7Q can capture. If Sony ever enables Slog3 on the FS700 then we will be able to capture that as well. Slog3 is not technically any better than Slog2, it is different look (a bit more Alexa-like in the way it rolls highlights).

 

[sunnyjimfilms]

Don't know if this has been mentioned before or if it's going to be addressed in firmware update but I'm getting some colour bleed on right hand edge of frame. It's particularly bad with the focus assist on. Anyone else seen this?

 

[morgan_moore]

, 'cause if you can't be bothered to tell the camera to record more of the blues v. the reds due to the color of the light then that's pretty damn lazy of you.

So the band have been playing all night under some sensor busting blue led light show. The last chord rings out and I slap on my 14mm. The band charge off the stage down a flouro corridor and into the dressing room lit with economic light bulbs of some nature.

I follow them down the corridor and into the dressing room filming a short but unique moment of reaction to their performance.

Did I set the wb three times during this 15 seconds of mayhem - err no - glad to know im lazy.

Whatever raw actually means to wonks raw means to shooters that you can pull 2 stop overexpose and completely ignore wb setting while shooting... IMO

 

[nyvz]

So the band have been playing all night under some sensor busting blue led light show. The last chord rings out and I slap on my 14mm. The band charge off the stage down a flouro corridor and into the dressing room lit with economic light bulbs of some nature.

I follow them down the corridor and into the dressing room filming a short but unique moment of reaction to their performance.

Did I set the wb - err no - glad to know im lazy.

Whatever raw actually means to wonks raw means to shooters that you can pull 2 stop overexpose and completely ignore wb setting while shooting... IMO

I'd maybe go 4300K then if you weren't sure you be able to adjust on the fly, easy compromise. Should still look nice unless you go super contrasty/saturated. I think the assumption of what RAW means to others is up to them and will likely change when they use more than one manufacturer's RAW camera.

 

[Colinelves]

No, because the camera does not output it as such.

This is why it is so important to set the camera to Slog2 when feeding the RAW signal to the FS700 (plus get your white balance correct). This allows the maximum flexibility in your RAW files..

Mitch,

given the white balance bug in the current firmware, what's the best approach to setting WB to get maximum flexibility at present? Should I manual WB in the camera and correct in post? Or should I set it via the O7Q? Or should I simply pick the most appropriate preset in camera?

I appreciate this bug will be fixed in the next firmware update, but I've a shot starting Tuesday that will all be 2K Raw, and the update could be two weeks away yet, so it's important for me to know now.

Thanks

 

[morgan_moore]

I think the assumption of what RAW means to others is up to them and will likely change when they use more than one manufacturer's RAW camera.

I think the assuption of raw is well defined and known (by operators - maybe not 'wonks') and has been for a decade..

"The ability to pull 2 stops of recovery from the highs (when viewing a 709 lut of course), one from the shadows and total control over temp and tint"

Any 'Raw' that cannot do this should promptly titled 'Faux Raw'

S

 

[sunnyjimfilms]

Fraux would be a bit more catchy.

 

[sunnyjimfilms]

This is the colour/ edge issue I was referring to in earlier post?

 

[cuervo]

sunnyjim...
yeah, I have that same right edge color bleed.

 

[Kyron]

Hey Colin, I shot 2k raw yesterday for a corporate client using the fs700's point-n-click white balance button as we were moving between setups so fast (and there were white walls everywhere).
It was pretty hard to tell on the 7Q during the shoot because slog2 is so flat, but everything graded perfectly fine in post today. I know the theory in this thread is that fs700 raw is kind of "faux", but the amount of latitude with white balance later in post makes this argument fairly null in my eyes. You would have to mess it up pretty bad on the extreme ends of the kelvin scale with 2k Raw to bring un-recoverable footage into post.

Having said that, I am super keen to get my camera and my 7q to agree on white balance!

Sunnyjim, I didn't notice the bleed on mine until you pointed it out! And its more pronounced with focus peaking on (in the below shot)

Here's a grab from yesterday's shoot.
Speedbooster / Canon 24-70 f/2.8 L @f4


And below the obvious difference in white balance between screens from another shot inside. (7Q in playback mode)
Thanks Olof for the sunhood which arrived 1 day before the shoot! Saved my bacon on the exteriors.

 

[sunnyjimfilms]

Thanks guys. Kyron, I was just going to post my response based on your original observation but now that you've noticed it too, assume it must be software issue and something that will be addressed in firmware update. Mitch, maybe you can elucidate? I might add - it's evident without the peaking in certain situations too.

 

[Gene Sung]

I noticed the red bleed issue as well, especially with peaking on. It doesn't really bother me though. Not nearly as much as the monitor flicker which drives me nuts. But Mitch mentioned that will be fixed in the firmware update. Fingers crossed.

 

[zen75]

"And if the gains can be used to pre-treat the signal at the camera head then the result will be cleaner than if you have to try to pull it up later."

What does this mean? Are you just talking about getting proper exposure or you actually talking about using the db gain on the camera?

 

[Mitch Gross]

Don't know if this has been mentioned before or if it's going to be addressed in firmware update but I'm getting some colour bleed on right hand edge of frame. It's particularly bad with the focus assist on. Anyone else seen this?

Is this in the recording or only in the monitoring?

 

[jshbckr]

Mitch, any word if the February firmware update will address the fact that the waveform monitor changes when the LUT is applied? I may be mistaken, but applying the LUT shouldn't effect the waveform. I want the visuals to be contrasty/saturated on the monitor, but the waveform should reflect the data that is being written to the SSDs, shouldn't it?

Thanks!

 

[Mitch Gross]

So the band have been playing all night under some sensor busting blue led light show. The last chord rings out and I slap on my 14mm. The band charge off the stage down a flouro corridor and into the dressing room lit with economic light bulbs of some nature.

I follow them down the corridor and into the dressing room filming a short but unique moment of reaction to their performance.

Did I set the wb three times during this 15 seconds of mayhem - err no - glad to know im lazy.

Whatever raw actually means to wonks raw means to shooters that you can pull 2 stop overexpose and completely ignore wb setting while shooting... IMO

Yeah, you're being lazy.

;-)

Sony has a bunch of tools available to you for this type of shooting. Of course there's auto white balance, but I wouldn't suggest that this is the best solution. But you can use auto white balance selectively. I would set the white balance transition to "shockless", which means that it happens in a gentle fashion, which is generally preferred when moving from space to space and transitioning while rolling. You can program any one of a number of control keys to be a quick white balance controller, so that a quick tap on the fly will engage the auto WB or just a moment, to smoothly shif tthe color.

Is it perfect? Of course not, but it is a lot better to color correct than not using it, especially if you are shooting in Slog2.

I'm sorry that you don't know what RAW really means. The reality is that many people do not, including people at major production facilities. I had to deal with someone at Technicolor just a few years back who kept referring to a Log signal as "raw". And this was to clients, and just a couple of years ago. But you can call it Susie and take it out for dinner, but not knowing what something really is and really means is in the end your problem and not mine. Facts are facts and RAW means different things on different cameras. Not understanding how your machine actually works is no excuse.

Lastly Sam, I do believe that you do not even own an FS700, butin fact currently shoot on a Sony F3, a camera that does not offer a RAW mode. I wonder what the point is here? Not to be overly rough, but what gives?

 

[Mitch Gross]

Mitch,

given the white balance bug in the current firmware, what's the best approach to setting WB to get maximum flexibility at present? Should I manual WB in the camera and correct in post? Or should I set it via the O7Q? Or should I simply pick the most appropriate preset in camera?

I appreciate this bug will be fixed in the next firmware update, but I've a shot starting Tuesday that will all be 2K Raw, and the update could be two weeks away yet, so it's important for me to know now.

Thanks

Pick the most appropriate WB in camera - either manual or auto - for whatever you shoot. The offset should not be so different that you cannot fix it in post cleanly.

 

[Mitch Gross]

"And if the gains can be used to pre-treat the signal at the camera head then the result will be cleaner than if you have to try to pull it up later."

What does this mean? Are you just talking about getting proper exposure or you actually talking about using the db gain on the camera?

I was referring to the gain levels on the individual color channels rather than overall exposure gain. But you could use this comparison there as well. Some things are still better done in camera than not. It is easy to determine which, just try experimenting by doing it each way and comparing.

 

[morgan_moore]

Mitch - I'm sure I don't know what raw 'means' in the the same way as I do not have the chemistry skills to make diesel for my van. I have a good concept of what I expect these technologies to do, however.

I think my expectation of 'raw' would be inline with any still or red shooter.

I'm not knocking your product btw you can only use what you are fed.

As for my camera - yep I own an f3 this quarter - but have shot with Red Fs 700 c300 et al and consider it my business to have a working knowledge of them all.

i have heard there are going to be loads of new cameras at nab from, er, you, so keep personal ownership off the bleeding edge.

 

[Mitch Gross]

When the RED One came out, many people we're horrified that the manufacturer dared to call it a RAW camera. After all, the signal was compressed.

No one disputed that the ARRI D21 was a RAW camera, nor did they argue that the Vision Research Phantom HD was a RAW camera. But these cameras set a white point, effectively baking in white balance.

RAW means non-deBayered. If you think it should mean omething else you are incorrect. It is a false assumption on your part.

Sorry, facts are facts.