Odyssey7 & Odyssey7Q October 2014 Firmware Update

nyvz said:
CD is no longer giving updates on features already announced?

I get that you're not happy with the customer response to your roadmaps and feature announcements, but it sounds like you are punishing the customers for having opinions about CDs ability to stick to its roadmap. It's not transparency that's the problem, nor is it the customers, it was the accuracy of the roadmaps that was the issue. Why not just try to be more accurate with the roadmap rather than cut off communication about features and update schedules?
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Certainly we are giving updates on announced features. Ask me a question about one of those features and I will do my best to answer it.

Roadmaps change for various reasons. We do our best to stick to them but we make adjustments for numerous reasons. And no, I am not going to go into those reasons. If asked about something specifically, I will try to state if it is a high or low priority, but it is very difficult to be more specific than that. For our next firmware release, we just today decided to hold off on one new function in favor of another. There were multiple reasons for it, and they are all internal and will remain internal. But the function we chose will be in the next firmware update, and the other function will almost definitely be in the one after that.
 
ianthom said:
Was thinking more like the zoom feature where you could drag it around...
could be sweet for thise exporting to 1080 :)
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Are you asking for a floating 16:9 window that could be dragged around the screen? One that specifically represents a 1920x1080 extraction from a 4K signal?

Interesting concept. How many people would find this useful? Would we need multiple magnification ratios? We would never actually crop anything in the recording, just illustrate what could be done in post.

I would like to hear from others as to what they would like to see in such a function. No commitments at this point, but it is intriguing.
 
Mitch Gross said:
Are you asking for a floating 16:9 window that could be dragged around the screen? One that specifically represents a 1920x1080 extraction from a 4K signal?

Exactly...I was shooting in 4k today for the specific purpose of providing 'pan and scan' in my HD output
I kept trying to 'visualise' my HD window while I was shooting, so as to better frame my shots to support this, but it took some guess work. I suspect a lot of people are shooting wide in 4k for this reason (particularly solo run n gunners such as myself) as it can *almost* replace a second camera
would love to hear peoples thoughts...keep up the good work! :)
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ianthom said:
Mitch Gross said:
Are you asking for a floating 16:9 window that could be dragged around the screen? One that specifically represents a 1920x1080 extraction from a 4K signal?

Exactly...I was shooting in 4k today for the specific purpose of providing 'pan and scan' in my HD output
I kept trying to 'visualise' my HD window while I was shooting, so as to better frame my shots to support this, but it took some guess work. I suspect a lot of people are shooting wide in 4k for this reason (particularly solo run n gunners such as myself) as it can *almost* replace a second camera
would love to hear peoples thoughts...keep up the good work! :)
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+1
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Mitch Gross said:
Are you asking for a floating 16:9 window that could be dragged around the screen? One that specifically represents a 1920x1080 extraction from a 4K signal?

Interesting concept. How many people would find this useful? Would we need multiple magnification ratios? We would never actually crop anything in the recording, just illustrate what could be done in post.

I would like to hear from others as to what they would like to see in such a function. No commitments at this point, but it is intriguing.
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I would find this useful. A 1280x720 window would also be nice for those mastering in 720p but shooting in 4k for cutting options, especially on interviews.
 
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It would be pretty interesting if the 7Q could take a 4k camera and turn it into a 1080/720p PTZ camera. And to take that to another level, to even support 2-4 separate cropped outputs from that 4k image with arbitrary PTZs so one could use it to do quick live multicam shows with one 4k camera.
 
Mitch Gross said:
Certainly we are giving updates on announced features. Ask me a question about one of those features and I will do my best to answer it.
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Sorry I guess I misunderstood then. But it would still be helpful to have condensed official updates on what features we can expect and their general progress. For example even if new firmwares arent coming every month just give updates on what the priorities are and what you hope to put in the next firmware. Seems like it would save a lot of people from asking a lot of questions over and over. For example I'm constantly wondering what the progress is on 3D LUTs and what to expect from them, progress and expectations for 60fps 4k prores and 240fps 2k prores, progress on lower flavors of prores, and the 4k HDMI solution that may or may not be in the works. I've heard things over time about their progress and what is still uncertain, but an official update from CD would really help me straighten out my expectations. Even if it's just which ones are definitely coming, which ones may not be possible, and which ones might actually show up in the next firmware update. Otherwise I guess I have to just come back to this thread and read everything and re-ask my questions every couple weeks to get updates.

3D LUTs: still only ASC-CDLs at first and only monitoring at first? But user .cube's will be supported? And recording Prores with user cube LUT applied to recording?
60fps 4k and 240fps 2k compressed: Sounds like this is still up in the air and may or may not be possible due to processing load? Perhaps more possible with lower quality debayer or more limited monitoring or other tradoffs?
exFAT and file structure: Any plans at all to fix this? FAT32 4GB file size limit for 100+MBps video files is ridiculous, as is the whole system of ejecting and having to use hidden files on the SSD etc. I've had problems with this on several shoots. Having to use separate poorly-designed proprietary tools to process DPX, Prores, and RAID recordings seems pretty silly.
Prores LT and other more compressed formats: Anything coming soon? Any possibility of XAVC? XAVC does require exfat but frankly it would really help with recording time and fit FS cameras into F camera workflows.
4k HDMI: Anything? Is this definitely coming or is CD still exploring solutions and might not ever find one? Will it be bulky and annoying and require 4xBNC? Definitely no chance of upgrading internal hardware for a more elegant solution?
 
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nyvz said:
Sorry I guess I misunderstood then. But it would still be helpful to have condensed official updates on what features we can expect and their general progress. For example even if new firmwares arent coming every month just give updates on what the priorities are and what you hope to put in the next firmware. Seems like it would save a lot of people from asking a lot of questions over and over. For example I'm constantly wondering what the progress is on 3D LUTs and what to expect from them, progress and expectations for 60fps 4k prores and 240fps 2k prores, progress on lower flavors of prores, and the 4k HDMI solution that may or may not be in the works. I've heard things over time about their progress and what is still uncertain, but an official update from CD would really help me straighten out my expectations. Even if it's just which ones are definitely coming, which ones may not be possible, and which ones might actually show up in the next firmware update. Otherwise I guess I have to just come back to this thread and read everything and re-ask my questions every couple weeks to get updates.

3D LUTs: still only ASC-CDLs at first and only monitoring at first? But user .cube's will be supported? And recording Prores with user cube LUT applied to recording?
60fps 4k and 240fps 2k compressed: Sounds like this is still up in the air and may or may not be possible due to processing load? Perhaps more possible with lower quality debayer or more limited monitoring or other tradoffs?
exFAT and file structure: Any plans at all to fix this? FAT32 4GB file size limit for 100+MBps video files is ridiculous, as is the whole system of ejecting and having to use hidden files on the SSD etc. I've had problems with this on several shoots. Having to use separate poorly-designed proprietary tools to process DPX, Prores, and RAID recordings seems pretty silly.
Prores LT and other more compressed formats: Anything coming soon? Any possibility of XAVC? XAVC does require exfat but frankly it would really help with recording time and fit FS cameras into F camera workflows.
4k HDMI: Anything? Is this definitely coming or is CD still exploring solutions and might not ever find one? Will it be bulky and annoying and require 4xBNC? Definitely no chance of upgrading internal hardware for a more elegant solution?
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I don't think re-asking your questions every few weeks will yield much for you. Let's see what I can do here for now.

3D-LUTS
We are looking to move directly into full image cubes and make them functional both for monitoring and recording (ProRes only). We will have our own base library of LUTs and users will be able to make their own, trade amongst friends, etc. We plan to support both 17x17x17 aka 16 floating point) as well as 33x33x33 (32 floating point). There will be signal routing controls within the Odyssey7Q to determine where the LUT is routed or not, as it can be helpful at times to see an unLUTted image.

Compressed 4K60p & 2K240p
Working on it. I've gone into the explanations on this in detail before so nothing worth explaining again. Your suggestions don't really effect the issues at hand given the architecture of the Odyssey7Q.

exFAT and file structure
No plans to change this. We record many different file types and for several reasons FAT32 is the best way for us to handle this. Other devices such as the PIX240 require a similar SSD Eject process to close files and create the directory. There are several reasons to do this and have to do with protecting the files, recording at high sustained data rates and packing data the most efficient way possible. We will work on improving and perhaps combining our post tools but the recording file structure will not be changing.

Other codecs
These are in the works but I don't have anything on timelines. We have committed to various flavors of ProRes as well as Avid DNx. For several reasons the only way we could ever offer XAVC would be as a paid record option, and I wonder if anyone would be interested in that. Don't expect such a thing in the near future.

4K HDMI
There will be something. Something soon.
 
Chris Johnston said:
I'm easy to confuse, so bear with me...Are we going to get compressed 4K at 24/30 fps? (or are we calling UHD 4K from now on?)
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Sorry, let me clarify.

We currently support 4K2UHD up to 30p, meaning 4K RAW in and turning that into UHD ProRes 422(HQ) up to 30p. We are working to get this up to 60p, if possible.

We currently also support 4K2HD up to 60p, meaning 4K RAW in and turning it into HD ProRes422(HQ) up to 60p.

We plan to also offer 4K2$K, which will take 4K RAW and turn it into 4K (4096x2160) compressed video. At least 30p but we are working towards 60p.

We also plan to offer 2K22K, which will take 2K RAW and turn it into 2K (2048x1080) compressed video. No word yet on how fast we will be able to go here, but the goal would be all the way to 240p if possible.
 
I think I saw somewhere from Mitch recently that if they can achieve 240fps @ 2k, they can theoretically achieve 4k @ 60 fps. Makes sense as it's the same amount of data. So with that logic, 120fps compressed should be doable now. I'd really hope that they come out with 4k @ 60fps first, but yeah, 240fps compressed would be amazing!

Mitch, just a thought - If compressing 4k ProRes to 60fps is too much, what about something like Cineform or DNG compressed?
 
Prendi said:
I think I saw somewhere from Mitch recently that if they can achieve 240fps @ 2k, they can theoretically achieve 4k @ 60 fps. Makes sense as it's the same amount of data. So with that logic, 120fps compressed should be doable now. I'd really hope that they come out with 4k @ 60fps first, but yeah, 240fps compressed would be amazing!

Mitch, just a thought - If compressing 4k ProRes to 60fps is too much, what about something like Cineform or DNG compressed?
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Just for a bit of technical clarity, while 4K60p and 2K240p are similar tasks, they are not quite identical. Even though the data load is the same over the course of time, one parses that time into 1/60 of a second increments and the other into 1/240 of a second increments. So less time per frame. Yes it is also 1/4 the information, but not all info is equal. If you have a frame with a flat wall or a plain blue sky then that part of the frame is not particularly intensive to process. But if there is a lot of detail and change going on then that if much harder info to crunch. If you have more time available then the simple stuff gets processed quickly and the complicated parts get more time devoted to them. Have very little time and the processor can only get a chance to do so much before having to move on.

In many ways RAW is much easier to do than compressed. With a fast enough system it is "just" assigning 1s and 0s, letting them pile up high and keep moving. With compression comes interpretation and processing. That's far more complicated. A codec is ruled by variation in signal and variation in data load. A good implementation of a codec doesn't change the look of the original signal much at all and it has to stick to a certain amount of data used for each frame with very little room for variation. The Odyssey7Q is also governed by the fact that it must operate in real time. Doing this work in post is much easier because the computer can take the time it wants to crunch away, but we can't. Good (image quality), fast (real time), cheap (how much data used) -- we have to do all three.

This is why I say that we don't really know if we can do certain resolution and frame rate pairings until we try. In theory we could do the fast and cheap part, but then the good might suffer. And we could make sure to do the good and the fast, but it becomes difficult to stay within the limits of cheap (how much data is allowed). Post systems have it easy because they are only concerned with the good and cheap aspects. So we need to juggle these factors and see what we can do, and we only know once we try and see where we land. We keep tweaking things along the way and continuously improve as we work towards the targets.

Cineform and DNG compressed are another level of codec that bring up their own issues.They are not ready to use video but instead another level of RAW. To get there we have to go in and out of RAW too often. It's bad to be compressed/decompressed multiple times. The result is concatenation, where artifacts from false information over repeated codecs leads to an issue called concatenation. I wrote about this before on DVXUSER and published it on the CD blog as well.
 
Hi Mitch,
why I cannot see the preview on the Odyssey 7Q when I play back the clip recordered?
In FS 700 I selected 4K 50p output
In Odyssey I selected 4K2HD, project 25p
On Odyssey I cannot play back the clip, if I see on mac i can see correctly the clip at 25p (go slow like 50p)
I cannot see in this mode on Odyssey? If I choose 50p Project odyssey playback correctly.

Thank you,
ciao
 
imax said:
Hi Mitch,
why I cannot see the preview on the Odyssey 7Q when I play back the clip recordered?
In FS 700 I selected 4K 50p output
In Odyssey I selected 4K2HD, project 25p
On Odyssey I cannot play back the clip, if I see on mac i can see correctly the clip at 25p (go slow like 50p)
I cannot see in this mode on Odyssey? If I choose 50p Project odyssey playback correctly.

Thank you,
ciao
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Not sure why you're having this problem. I just tested it myself and it worked fine. Please note that the 50p time base will also play back at 25p as 25p/30p are our current max playback speeds. This is noted in the manual as well as in the status menus of the Odyssey7Q. But both versions you describe above do indeed play back just fine.

If your problem persists, I suggest you contact us at cdsupport@convergent-design.com for more in-depth assistance.
 
Mitch,
Amidst all the other requests and comments, I'd like to throw out what should be a fairly simple request. I have to tap the on screen buttons multiple times in order to get a response from my O7Q. It is very non-sensitive to all button touches. Would it be possible to incorporate a "button-press" sensitivity slider? It's rather annoyong to have to keep tapping my screen until I get a response, usually 2x or 3x. I thought the O7Q would teach me how to tap the screen, but, this issue persists no matter what technique I use.
 
cuervo said:
Mitch,
Amidst all the other requests and comments, I'd like to throw out what should be a fairly simple request. I have to tap the on screen buttons multiple times in order to get a response from my O7Q. It is very non-sensitive to all button touches. Would it be possible to incorporate a "button-press" sensitivity slider? It's rather annoyong to have to keep tapping my screen until I get a response, usually 2x or 3x. I thought the O7Q would teach me how to tap the screen, but, this issue persists no matter what technique I use.
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Have you tried re-setting the screen? It's the top left physical button. Above the shut down button anyhow.
 
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