Now That The Dust Has Settled....

David G. Smith

David G. Smith

Steak Knife Member
So, now that the dust has settled from the Great November 3rd Camera Announcement Day, and we know know how the large sensor HD camera market is going to play out for a while, I was wondering who has decided to go ahead and drop the hammer and buy a FS100, or AF100? The new Canon and the Scarlett are great cameras, but the price of both puts them out of reach for a lot of folks. I believe that the current heirs to the filmmaking niche that was established by the DVX100 are the new 100s, the FS100 and the AF100 and that the events of 11/03/11 solidified them in that role; well, for now at least.

Also, I was wondering who has made the decision to stay with shooting on DSLRs, without the costs being the deciding factor, and why?
 
I'm still shooting with a 7D and Nikon lenses, investing in support pieces like filters and cases for various jobs - and soon a new tripod system that costs more than the FS100.

Cameras change every day. For a project that calls for something greater than the 7D, I rent or call in favors. I like the FS100's offering for the price tag (never shot with it), but I'd rather invest in the things that aren't always on the verge of obsolete. Not that the FS100 is that close - not at all, really - but you get my drift.
 
I followed Scarlet for a loooong time. Drank the Red Kool-Aid for a looooong time. I will be buying an FS100 and Ninja Combo. Can't wait!
 
You can't go wrong at this point, any of these cameras can make amazing visuals, just get what works for you. I'll be rocking my 5D Mark II for a while, hopefully working my way towards a Scarlet, but I can't say I wouldn't pick up an extra camera along the way, especially if prices fall any more (the Canon Rebel T2i and T3i being good examples).
 
I wasn't expecting any of the Nov3 announcements to be anywhere close to my price point. I really want an FS100 to replace my 5Dii ... but it is
just priced out of my reach for my current needs. I see the Sony NEX VG20 to be the most appealing to me at the moment... simply because of
the features and form factor.
The only thing that makes me hesitate is the seeming lack of flexibility of image. I wonder how hard it will be to grade the footage.
 
Canon C300 was a complete disappointment both in features and price. Scarlet was also an disappointment in terms of lack of high framerate. However, for Scarlet, just the basic accessories such as sidegrip, SSD, and battery cost much as FS100.

No more "historic" announcements please!
 
lol - Look Im a pixel peeping specs junkie and I've torn up Canon for the C300 but you cant dismiss it for the amazing image it puts out. Its main 3 problems in my eyes are PRICE - too much for too little, no dual link hd-sdi - again for the price a bad miss and lastly, most face palming of all was 60p at 720. How can you put your latest and greatest $20k cine/film camera up with a pathetic overcrank like that? FS100 does it for $5k and while the image is nowhere on par with the c300, even the F3 offers it with the appropriate external recorder. So I just dont see who would ever opt for the c300 over an F3. Now if the c300 did 1080 60p AND its RRP was around $16k (meaning a street closer to $13-14k) that would be a completely different story. I was all set to take out a loan for the Scarlet BUT then they killed the overcrank by again limiting it to 1080 60p and that being from a sensor crop. WTF happened to 3k at 120fps???

So yeah Im all set for an FS100 buy - only thing scaring me is how it handles highlights compared to the canons. The canon DSLRs roll off film style - a lot of what I've seen on the FS100 just looks like harsh clipped video. But its low light and 1080 60p are a HUGE bonus for a $5k package. I would love to be proven wrong about the highlight handling so dont hold back if you think otherwise ;-)
 
At the end of the day, all these cameras are amazing and all of them will allow you to get the image that you want. It's about finding the right tool for the job. I had a deposit in for the Scarlet X, but I recently cancelled it because it wouldn't be conducive to the things I want to shoot and my ultimate output destination. I just bought a FS100 because that is the tool that will best fit the things I'm shooting right now, particularly with my need for higher frame rates (I didn't like the windowed sensor aspect of the Scarlet). Eventually I will probably purchase an Epic or the successor the the C300, but I don't need that at the moment.
 
Now that the dust has settled I'm not thrilled with either announcement. Neither company brought out a new product for the $5000 - $7000 price bracket, and the scarlet cannot shoot 1080p 60fps, neither can the canon c300, yet the af100 and the fs100 can!

The most exciting thing I've seen in a while is the iFrame codec thats been added to the new canon 1d.

Even though I've got a depsoit on a scarlet and a place in the queue, I'm keenly waiting for specs on the 7d mark 2.

To quote Philip Bloom "We don't need a DSLR killer, we need a killer DSLR"
 
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I'm sticking with DSLRs as a main go-to workhorse for a lot of my work, but I want the higher [line] resolution to gain more detail. Which is why I'm investing in an FS100 to go along w/ my 60D. I definitely wanna pick up the new C DSLRs from Canon, and I think that if the new sensor tech migrates the way I think it will from the 1Dx and C300, the new DSLRs should be true HD with the proper 1000 lines of detail as they should.

Later on I'll worry about using the F3 and Alexa. But for now, my art still remains...
 
echo9 said:
At the end of the day, all these cameras are amazing
Click to expand...

Scarlet may or may not be amazing, its a cinema camera and I shoot doco

I think they are all lacking, lacking simple things that make them usable in the field

(I would not expect scarlet to have that usability .. it a cinema camera for formal shooting)

Zoom in and check focus on a nice ergonomic lanc controller ? (the 2008? EX1 has the best focus check)
Record button on a nice ergonomic lanc controller? (standard on ENG cams from 1980s)
A way of checking colour? (critical in 420 space)
A way of simple dialing in tint ? (critical in 420 space)
Dialing ISO? (7d, 5d)
Pre Roll? (Sound Devices sound recorders - eng cams?)
4 tracks of audio (2 inputs, two levels of gain per input) (FS100 does this for one track - love it)
Extra non recorded image headroom to spot the boom etc -? (5d/7d has this)
Sluggish control on iris? You can change iris on the 5/7d 10X faster than the FS100+Stock lens
Rackable Iris ?

The canon may have some of these things but they are not advertising them and they should be

Canon XLR solution is a pigs ear
Canon monitor is not high enough res, yet you have to have it to get XLR so you are going to end up with the box and a monitor
Location of the EVF is wrong on the Canon - so its just somthing adding to mass and cost and waiting to be broken
Canon - should have focus control via a hand unit/lanc (not af)

These are simple things missed by designers that never shoot and have certainly not got their heads round the precision required to gain focus when shooting actuality on an S35chip

Simple things are different from expecting 5k RAW at 300FPS - thats not a simple thing I would not expect it at this price point

To me there is only so much money you can plough into flawed cameras.. and the FS100 is at that limit, the Canon beyond it

S
 
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morgan_moore said:
Scarlet may or may not be amazing, its a cinema camera and I shoot doco

I think they are all lacking, lacking simple things that make them usable in the field

(I would not expect scarlet to have that usability .. it a cinema camera for formal shooting)

Zoom in and check focus on a nice ergonomic lanc controller ? (the 2008? EX1 has the best focus check)
Record button on a nice ergonomic lanc controller? (standard on ENG cams from 1980s)
A way of checking colour? (critical in 420 space)
A way of simple dialing in tint ? (critical in 420 space)
Dialing ISO? (7d, 5d)
Pre Roll? (Sound Devices sound recorders - eng cams?)
4 tracks of audio (2 inputs, two levels of gain per input) (FS100 does this for one track - love it)
Extra non recorded image headroom to spot the boom etc -? (5d/7d has this)
Sluggish control on iris? You can change iris on the 5/7d 10X faster than the FS100+Stock lens
Rackable Iris ?

The canon may have some of these things but they are not advertising them and they should be

Canon XLR solution is a pigs ear
Canon monitor is not high enough res, yet you have to have it to get XLR so you are going to end up with the box and a monitor
Location of the EVF is wrong on the Canon - so its just somthing adding to mass and cost and waiting to be broken
Canon - should have focus control via a hand unit/lanc (not af)

These are simple things missed by designers that never shoot and have certainly not got their heads round the precision required to gain focus when shooting actuality on an S35chip

Simple things are different from expecting 5k RAW at 300FPS - thats not a simple thing I would not expect it at this price point

To me there is only so much money you can plough into flawed cameras.. and the FS100 is at that limit, the Canon beyond it

S
Click to expand...

You realize film cameras have none of these features, yet they have worked in the cinema/documentary world for over a century. Canon and RED's offerings are digital cinema cameras, not ENG cams, which is exactly what you are describing. I'm sure a HPX2700 would fit those needs perfectly.
 
Of course film cameras have none of these features, shooting film is either a hassle (see drama) or a very high art (see a few rare documentarians)

Film of course has oodles of lattidute compared to thin 420 digifiles (both colour and exposure)

I can see that the Scarlet is a Digital cinema camera - I would forgive it for being a chip in a box for that price/performance

Id also not want a chip in a box because it would not fit my shooting style

Actually there are vague claims that the Scarlet has canon AF or at least lens control making it more ENG suited than Canons own offering

The Canon however - what is that for ? - a few high volume soaps operas that dont want to mess with 4k?

If its not a lot better than the AF100/FS100 for wedding/eng/news/corporate and not as cinema as Scarlet that seems a pretty small box to me

BTW - of course they are all wonderful cameras - im happy with the box my FS100 fits into - very happy

Some years ago I nearly spent $70k on SD BetaCam ENG rig - I am so glad I did not and thats thanks to this generation of cameras - we should not forget that

Edit: I dont think Im suggesting anything much that cannot be done in firmware and is not already sitting in the CPU of the cameras

Best

SamMM
 
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I shoot doc, corporate and web.

i have no calls for green screen.

i most often deliver H264 and, still incredibly, standard def DVD.

i shoot small crew and one-person.

for me to latch onto a dslr condemns me to shooting double system.

that often changes my workflow.

in a doc, it is hard enough to monitor the shot, the light, the talent and then to keep my eye on another recording device for sound.

my accountant has strongly suggested, i should spend some money this year on equipment.

at this moment, i'm still very interested in the fs100 w/kit lens, fmu128gb ala rebate, a 2nd battery, a novaflex nikon adapter and maybe that lovely walnut handle.

ymmv

be well

rob
smalltalk productions
 
morgan_moore said:
The Canon however - what is that for ? - a few high volume soaps operas that dont want to mess with 4k?
Click to expand...

I imagine it will fit in under Alexa where the F3 is right now for commercial/corporate gigs if the image quality is what they say it is. I would imagine the rental market for it will be huge. Personally I can see myself shooting a lot of jobs with it over the next year.

Some years ago I nearly spent $70k on SD BetaCam ENG rig
Click to expand...

Would that have been ye ol' Sony D600 perhaps? I shudder to think of how many of those are laying around gathering dust.
 
William_Robinette said:
I imagine it will fit in under Alexa where the F3 is right now for commercial/corporate gigs if the image quality is what they say it is. I would imagine the rental market for it will be huge. Personally I can see myself shooting a lot of jobs with it over the next year.
Click to expand...

Help me out - why would these gigs not happen on Scarlet?

-----

Edit

Answering this myself ; most corparate dont rely on nat light so the high ISO insnt a deal winner, you cant crop out a boom or do a little stabilisation without knackin the the 1080 deliverable, and you have not got the lat or control of Raw over the look

So I cant see where the Scarlet doesnt win on those jobs

Now I can see that six cams fiming a pop festival for a couple of days could cause data issues with scarlet, but not the regular corp gig ??

S
 
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Ehh, I'm not in a camp here red or canon. Everyone shoots differently and each market is unique. I can tell you that personally in my market and for the jobs I do yeah, I can see the canon getting more play. Is the RED technically better? Of course, but sometimes you need to hand cards off to a producer at night. Sometimes you don't need RAW. Blasphemous, I know.

Look, on the 6 figure plus jobs, don't see it as winning out over RED, for stuff where you don't need that firepower, or your post team is already dealing with a lot of 5d 7d stuff I see this fitting in nicely. Sometimes when I'm shooting a corporate piece I don't want or have the resources to deal with generating data on the order of terrabytes a day.

It doesn't have to be one or the other absolutely. For the renting DP I think the canon will be a great option to have, as will Scarlet, the F3, af100, and all the way through Alexa and epic/R1.
 
Im not in any camp either, apart from the "give me onboard ND for the FS100 camp"

Or the maybe "Give me lens control with out a christmas tree stuck to the camera camp"

Now the canon does one of those, maybe enough to justify a rental over an FS100 rental, but not to me enough to justify it as a purchase (to me)

Yeah the canon is a very posh FS100 and has the 'magic' 50mbs sticker too which some care about

So maybe you are right - it will be a cool rental for those jobs where data/simple workflow/the magic 50 are an issue while ultimate delivery quality is not

S
 
I know that the Canon would work well with my workflow, because I could just take the footage and go, most of my clients/jobs require the product the next day or they'll be on my back about it. But the FS100 does this perfectly for me, let's me take the footage, edit quickly, deliver. I have ordered a RED, but for the sole purpose of shooting Films with it, not any sort of corporate/event/wedding stuff, the workflow would be a nightmare (can you imagine trying to shoot a wedding on a RED and deliver the same day?) The FS100 fits perfectly into my workflow and is here to stay, I am wanting to get an external recorder for it, but none can do 60p :(
 
Yeah the lack of 1080 60p options for external recording is a bummer. Is it simply that no external recorders exist for 1080 60p over HDMI or that the FS100 doesnt output 1080 60p over HDMI?
 
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