no one will buy this camera at 9k

stephenlnoe said:
25Mb is not a low datarate for Mpeg2, it is a low datarate for DVCProHD which is a different format. I wish people would quit confusing the formats. The need for a higher datarate on XDCam-HD is to support 422 color sampling and 4 streams of audio, otherwise it is LongGOP.
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I am not confusing them at all...? I just want higher bitrate MPEG2 exactly for the reasons you mention, particularly 4:2:2, but also less artifacting. MPEG4 woud be better, but is too processor intensive still at present.

Basically, I think XDCAM-HD should be available at sub $10k... obviously in 1/3" cameras, and for now hard drives seem the best compromise for storage instead of XDCAM system.
 
Barry_Green said:
Because 24p looks like film and 30p doesn't.
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Not quite. His delivery method was DVD not film. There is no good reason to shoot 24P when the deliverey method is NTSC/DVD. It just adds steps to the process of editing and delivery.
 
That is just completely not true. There are at least four most excellent reasons to shoot 24P (and not 30P) when your delivery medium is DVD:

1) 24P looks like film, 30P doesn't

2) 24P can be encoded as a 24P DVD, which can be played back as progressive-scan on a progressive-scan DVD player. 30P can't. 30P is always stored and played as interlaced. 24P is stored as progressive-scan. Put a 24P DVD into a progressive-scan DVD player, play it on a progressive-scan display, and the results are the best you'll ever get out of the DVD format.

3) a 24P DVD can take up 20% less space on the DVD, allowing you to fit more content.

4) alternately, a 24P DVD can employ lower compression for the same running time, making for better-looking video.

So, on the contrary: there is basically "no good reason" ever to *not* shoot 24P when delivering NTSC DVD. 24P is the OPTIMAL shooting method for NTSC DVDs. (unless you need the "reality"/"60i" look). 24P support is built into DVD players -- Hollywood insisted upon it. 24P delivers the ultimate DVD experience.
 
stephenlnoe said:
Not quite. His delivery method was DVD not film. There is no good reason to shoot 24P when the deliverey method is NTSC/DVD. It just adds steps to the process of editing and delivery.
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I can think of one main reason for most folks shooting 24p: aesthetics. DVD delivery of 24p looks like film originated material while DVD delivery of 60i looks like home video. And with automated 24pA supporting NLEs like FCP and Avid there are little to no added steps, in fact everything runs a little faster because you have 20% less frames to render out to MPEG2 for the DVD. If you think the primary reason we shoot 24p is to go out to film you should see some comparison demos- like this one:

http://www.lafcpug.org/reviews/review_dvx_pd150.html

Noah
 
1: Opinion

2: 24P DVD will not play on grandpa's DVD player (pre-progressive)

3: True, less frames

4: Somewhat true, less frames gives more datarate room.

Least path of resistence is 30P/60i for DVD. They put 30P and 60i on these cameras for good reason. We fell in with the 24P stuff when it first came out and then when we had to convert the 24P to 30P a few times we gave up on 24P unless the intention was to go to film. Your points are well thought out, I'll give you that. When time is wasted converting 24P to something compatible with NTSC you soon learn the virtues of 30P.
 
NoahK said:
If you think the primary reason we shoot 24p is to go out to film you should see some comparison demos- like this one:
http://www.lafcpug.org/reviews/review_dvx_pd150.html
Noah
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Thanks for posting the link. I know well the virtues of cinegamma and 24P and I like it for myself. When projects need to get out though, the path of least resistance rules, 30P/60i.

BTW: To me, the real difference is the gamma curve, not the frame rate.
 
stephenlnoe said:
1: Opinion
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Not opinion, unquestionable fact. Films are displayed at 24 frames per second, not 30. 24P looks more like film than 30p does.

2: 24P DVD will not play on grandpa's DVD player (pre-progressive)
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Actually, 24P has been in the spec since day 1. There is not a DVD player made that doesn't support 24P DVDs.

Least path of resistence is 30P/60i for DVD.
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Not really. 30P is an unsupported DVD format; in fact it causes problems (it cannot be transferred to film and it cannot be transferred to PAL.) Either 24P or 60i are native DVD formats, 30P isn't.

We fell in with the 24P stuff when it first came out and then when we had to convert the 24P to 30P a few times we gave up on 24P unless the intention was to go to film.
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Okay, here appears to be where the misunderstanding is. You don't have to convert 24P to 30P. It's totally not necessary -- you can author directly to 24p.

Every DVD player ever made supports two MPEG-2 encoding modes, either 24P or 60i. If the DVD player is not progressive-scan, or is hooked up to an interlaced display, the DVD player will automatically insert 2:3 pulldown to make the file compatible with interlaced televisions. Which means every 24P DVD will automatically play on every DVD player out there.

If the DVD player *is* progressive, and hooked up to a progressive display, it will play back the 24P file as progressive. Which delivers a darn-near high-def-looking experience.

30P is not a directly-supported format. 30P encoded on a DVD will be played back as a 60i data stream.

If you've been converting your 24P to 30P, you've been expending unnecessary effort and lost the pure-progressive output option. If I'm not mistaken, you edit using Liquid, which as far as I know doesn't support 24P timelines, right? Perhaps that's why you didn't know about this. Using an editor that supports 24P timelines will let you output your MPEG-2's as 24p, and they *will* work on DVD players.

When time is wasted converting 24P to something compatible with NTSC you soon learn the virtues of 30P.
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I appreciate the sentiment, but I'm afraid the situation is exactly the opposite. 30P gives no advantages, whereas there are significant advantages with going with 24P. It's how all Hollywood DVDs out there that are authored.
 
Excuse me, I disagree. The way it's done here works as well as the way you're describing. 30P is not put on the DVD, 29.97 is. Obviously our workflows do not match.

let's leave it at that, shall we?
 
Sorry, I tried to get back in there and re-edit it before you saw it -- I realized that it came off way too harsh. I'm normally more measured than that. I apologize for the tone, it was uncharacteristic and unnecessary.

You're entitled to use whatever workflow you desire, of course. It seems to me that you were unaware that 24p can be directly encoded on a DVD, and thought that NTSC DVDs required a 60i encoding. I should have simply said that "if you like the look of 24P, you can directly encode that -- it's not necessary to convert to 30P or 60i, all DVD players support 24P files directly." Again, sorry for coming off as a horse's patoot!
 
There is one more aspect of shooting 24p worth considering.

If you make something for the international market. a 24p master will be alot better then a 30p master.
 
@Barry Green,

In all fairness Barry, there is no such thing as 24p end to end in Liquid Broadcast. There is 30p end to end. With 30p (same as 24p) you get much better screen captures compaired to interlaced video. This is why we choose 30p (to feed the art department).

So, as I wrote above, the workflow calls for 30p. I was not clear on the workflow so there was misunderstanding. That's the funny thing about forums and writing people whom you have no personal contact. If you and I were sitting across the table from each other, I could explain the reasoning is 2 or 3 sentences and you'd be on the same page.

It's all good, no harm.
 
Got it.

Thanks for conducting yourself with such class -- I very much appreciate the example you've set, and will redouble my efforts to live up to it.
 
Well, stephenlnoe has a very good point. Most clients are more likely to see a film-like gamma as film, rather then notice it is 24p.

24p isn't supported in most cheap DVD-players (over here in Europe, although they all (or virtually all) support PAL AND NTSC ...) which is a problem indeed...
 
mezelf27 said:
Well, stephenlnoe has a very good point. Most clients are more likely to see a film-like gamma as film, rather then notice it is 24p.

24p isn't supported in most cheap DVD-players (over here in Europe, although they all (or virtually all) support PAL AND NTSC ...) which is a problem indeed...
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I don't really agree with that. Film-like gamma at 60i still looks like video... just more filmish in its color. I think what it seems that people are getting confused with is that even though the DVX shoots progressively, it's still laying down 60i to tape. You don't have to render a 24p DVD to see the film-like motion right out of the camera. The cadence of 24 frames just looks totally different. Because stephenlnoe was saying "if his final output is to DVD, why not just shoot 60i" and "The way it's done here works as well as the way you're describing. 30P is not put on the DVD, 29.97 is," it makes me think that because NTSC is 60i no matter what, people are getting the impression that you can't see the effects of 24p through NSTC broadcast or DVD playback. But it's already there in the footage, all you have to do is use the camera to see the difference. Go out and shoot a scene at 24p and then shoot one at 60i... plug the camera into the TV and watch the tape. You'll spot the difference right away.
 
mezelf27 said:
24p isn't supported in most cheap DVD-players (over here in Europe, although they all (or virtually all) support PAL AND NTSC ...) which is a problem indeed...
Click to expand...

That may be true in Europe (don't know), but every DVD player sold here will support it, from the very beginning through today.
 
stephenlnoe said:
there is no such thing as 24p end to end in Liquid Broadcast. There is 30p end to end.
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This is why I left Liquid and went to Vegas. There are no extra steps. Editing 24p and burning a 24p DVD is exactly the same as working entirely in 60i; the only difference is in which settings you choose for your timeline and for your render.

Perhaps with Avid's acquisition of Pinnacle, a real 24p workflow will be integrated into a later version.
 
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